Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I wouldn't have an issue sinking $10-12k into a boat if she was in impeccable condition, had new sails and good lines/rigging. A working inboard and all the bells and whistles. Having a wind vane steering system or auto pilot would be a huge perk since they seem to run $2-6k alone. I'm considering a lot of things but when it all comes down to it if it's just a bare bone boat with sails and half decent lines/rigging I won't have to replace. My budget is about $5-7k and that means no refit needed or tons of work to get her ready. I still have all those other things to buy and can't depend on getting them at a discount.

Your budget is going to be challenging for what you want to do with it. Not impossible, but you're going to have to get very good at assessing the fitness and condition of the boats you look at and also get lucky along the way. That's particularly true given the fact that dropping $500+ on a survey may be out of your budget. If you can find someone locally, ideally a friend, who has the knowledge and can accompany you as you look at candidate boats that would be very helpful. You need help, hands-on in-person help. Because every old boat looks better in pictures than it does in person, and every old boat, particularly in that price range, has issues you don't know enough to identify and assess no matter how much you read.

Every DIY yard I've visited has it's share of people who had the same dream as you do, who had limited experience and a limited budget and bought a cheap boat. And then they learned it needed this, and that, and this and that in order to be safe much less functional. They are stranded in those yards, sometimes for years, toiling away to make them right, working to make money to fix a boat that was fundamentally unfit in the first place. In the end they spend considerably more than if they had spent twice (or more) as much to begin with. You don't want to be one of those people. They are generally pretty unhappy.

To be clear I'm not trying to dissuade you from your quest. I'm just telling you to get help.

[kmacdonald]

With his budget he needs a free boat that is almost ready to go. It'll take some looking but they are out there. Even though it's free, it's really not going to be free by the time it's ready. It'll be at least triple what you think.
I'd be more concerned with condition more than design. People cross oceans in dinghy's and start preparing for single-handed crossing while still in diapers.

[kmacdonald]

Another thing about boats for sale, about half claim to have rebuilt engines. That translates to an oil change in an engine that doesn't work. In your price range you should be looking for an outboard powered boat. Easy to fix or replace at reasonable cost.
When the yacht brokers tell you it was owned by a surveyor or captain, just hang up on e'm------or I guess you could waste a little of your time and say BS.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Suijin

. . . . .If you're coming to it cold, without prior direct experience in similar situations, you're setting yourself up for failure or at least a high-anxiety trip.

That all sounds logical and I agree in part. . . . but I also disagree in part, at least for myself.

I find the first 'crisis' of its kind to be interesting/challenging/rewarding - a reason to be out there doing it, while I find the 3rd repetition to be dull and frustrating.

And at least my experience is that you run into new 'emergencies' for about/at least the first 15 years of offshore cruising - so, you need a personality that can deal with these things and even enjoy them (as I did) . . . . because you will face them even if you are moderately experienced.

It has been said that the offshore life is one of intense high points and extremely deep low points emotionally. And that is true no matter how much experience you have. Some people have a personality which relishes that, and others just can't handle it.

I am NOT arguing that offshore experience is not valuable at all. Of course it is. What I am arguing is that the basic personality traits which make a successful cruiser run much deeper than 'offshore experience' - someone with zero experience at all but those traits in spades will do much much better than someone who has some experience but not those fundamental traits.

And again, just in my experience, I am not sure that being crew is going to tell you much. We (skippers, and as an aside btw ex-ceo's) used to talk about the 'loneliness of command" - a burden and responsibility that really cannot be seen or felt even by the 2nd in command - one that some people truly relish and one which some people find crushing.

idk . . . . I personally am generally just a dive in and do it sort, but I also don't really see that prior experience level has been much of a differentiation between those we see thrive vs those who don't (and we have helped and followed quite a few people off the dock now).

In trying to figure who might make it and who might not, I found EMT's and public school teachers to be the 'most likely to succeed', and that was really the only factor that I could see any correlation on (not experience or wealth or success, or 'outdoorsy', etc - and I am quite sure that most of the boat factors that are discussed in this and other threads at length are really not important to success vs failure - but I do think it is important that you 'believe in' your boat, so whatever it takes to do that, placebo or not, is what needs to be done).

[Don C L]

You know, why not contact James Baldwin at atomvoyages directly and tell him what you have in mind... I bet he will have a lot of good info for you too. I recently sold him my atom stove that I had bought a couple years ago from someone else (he’s the original maker.) very nice fellow, with lots of experience in small boats crossing oceans.

[kmacdonald]

Don't be bashful about making an offer on a boat. Say if the asking price $12K I'd start at $500 and might be willing to pay $600. Worry about your own pocket and not the sellers feelings. If you really want to play hardball, have a friend loosen e'm up with a $50 offer first, then your $500 offer will look a lot better. Best case you get the boat for $50.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Your budget is going to be challenging for what you want to do with it. Not impossible, but you're going to have to get very good at assessing the fitness and condition of the boats you look at and also get lucky along the way.

^^ this is exactly correct.

With boats this age, there is unfortunately simply going to be some luck involved. They might have a hidden issue that even the most expensive refit or the most competent surveyor might not find. That’s just “life” here.

The forum could help the op by pointing out the few truely critical things he should look for and how to look. He wants the rudder and keel to stay on, the mast to stay up, and big amounts of water to stay out of the boat - those are the essentials. Pretty much everything else is an optional luxury (in this price range). He is right a good wind vane, and btw decent ground tackle are the few critical pieces of equipment. So, it would be valuable to help him think about what exactly to look at and ask about to check on those few important things.

Not much to think about with a full keel, but bolts and joint to look at with a fin. Examine bearing, and give good hard wiggle for rudders. Examine fitting and also good hard wiggle for bow sprits. Close look at chain plates and up mast looking for cracks corrosion and broken strands and freeze damage. Look for water damage at hull to deck joint, hatches and companionway, and gel coat stress cracks. Bulkhead tabbing sound. Quick thoughts - but others here with way way more experience with old boats than me.

I personally, if getting a boat this age, would strip it back to a bare shell and restart from there (have thought about doing exactly that just as a fun project) - add stringers and ring frames, reduce interior weight, put on a specialize singlehanded interior and deck layout, reduce holes and bolts thru deck and hull (probably take a year and more $ than the boat was worth and make resale difficult).......but that does not make sense for op’s budget or timeframe.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Your budget is going to be challenging for what you want to do with it. Not impossible, but you're going to have to get very good at assessing the fitness and condition of the boats you look at and also get lucky along the way. That's particularly true given the fact that dropping $500+ on a survey may be out of your budget. If you can find someone locally, ideally a friend, who has the knowledge and can accompany you as you look at candidate boats that would be very helpful. You need help, hands-on in-person help. Because every old boat looks better in pictures than it does in person, and every old boat, particularly in that price range, has issues you don't know enough to identify and assess no matter how much you read.

Every DIY yard I've visited has it's share of people who had the same dream as you do, who had limited experience and a limited budget and bought a cheap boat. And then they learned it needed this, and that, and this and that in order to be safe much less functional. They are stranded in those yards, sometimes for years, toiling away to make them right, working to make money to fix a boat that was fundamentally unfit in the first place. In the end they spend considerably more than if they had spent twice (or more) as much to begin with. You don't want to be one of those people. They are generally pretty unhappy.

To be clear I'm not trying to dissuade you from your quest. I'm just telling you to get help.

Very well put.

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...p-tips.102541/

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I'll try to prioritize towards full keel boats on the list

As has been said here before, a well-built fin keel / spade rudder, a modified full-keel with cutaway forefoot, a solid fin keel with skeg-hung rudder, and similar variants can all be excellent sea-keeping boats. It depends on design and maintenance.

What I suggest you avoid are the deep, skinny keels with narrow attachment to the hull. The deep, skinny kind with heavy ballast bulbs are probably the most vulnerable. These more extreme keels are more efficient, especially at speed, but they stall easily and require more skill / attention to sail well. If you are racing, this can be a good thing, but not so much for solo cruising. Also, these extreme keels put a lot of torque on the hull attachment due to the leverage created by the geometry. These are the keels that fall off (example: Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude). Obviously, these keels almost always *do* remain attached, and when properly maintained, and not run into things, this isn't generally a problem.

So I think a less extreme keel is probably the best approach for you, but there's no need to limit the search to a full-keel design.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

So I think a less extreme keel is probably the best approach for you, but there's no need to limit the search to a full-keel design.

Yes, exactly.

I was racing on a j120 when we hit a rock with the keel while going 8kts. Boat came to a dead stop, crew pitched down the deck. Owner very frightened he had wrecked boat . . . . . But was not taking on water, and was hauled and keel taken off and everything found to be ok except big dent in lead - which apparently absorbed the impact. Boat still sailing, was the 2nd best Bermuda 1/2 boat for about a decade (so had many hard offshore miles after this incident). And j boats are just ‘average’ construction, nothing special. So these sorts of fins can be surprisingly robust.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Your budget is going to be challenging for what you want to do with it. Not impossible... Every DIY yard I've visited has it's share of people who had the same dream as you do, who had limited experience and a limited budget and bought a cheap boat. And then they learned it needed this, and that, and this and that in order to be safe much less functional. They are stranded in those yards, sometimes for years, toiling away...

Yep, This is oh so true – but, not necessarily an impediment, if (IF)… If you buy classic-plastic on a budget you almost assuredly will have some issues that require owner skills; the question is which skills and do you actually have them. The likelihood of buying a budget-boat and sailing of over the horizon in 90 days is slim, but the project need not become a lawn ornament either… I’ve never found sweat equity an insurmountable obstacle for folks who have planned ahead to use sweat equity – and anticipate/know its realities.

About the only thing money does is potentially speed up your timetable – conversely, a limited supply will slow you (or bring it to a stop). Likely; you’ll need fiberglass skills – not necessarily marine fiberglass, but skills that can be adapted. Similarly, fabric skills – not necessarily being able to make a sail (which I’ve never done), but being able to reinforce/repair, which I’ve done on every sailboat I’ve owned. Mechanical skills (the engine), electrical skills (supplying the electro-appetites of modern techno-gizmos…), etc., etc., etc. There is very little instant gratification in the budget-boat world, but there is gratification. The bottom line is turn the dream into a legitimate plan, then work the plan… hard.

[john61ct]

Well when I wrote this

Originally Posted by john61ct

The cost of travel, survey and towing is part of the deal, price of (maybe) getting a great boat at a fantastic price. Just have to include that in your budget if you're on a schedule.

Otherwise plan B, maybe you should just wait for the perfect deal to appear in your back yard. Can earn and save some more money in the meantime, if it doesn't turn up then more ready to go back to plan A.

I had no idea your budget was **that** limited, so that last part is now more relevant.

Or just concede you can't afford what you said you're looking for, and just get out on the water in a "first boat" to get experience around the edges of working hard and saving up for the long-term keeper.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Well when I wrote this



I had no idea your budget was **that** limited, so that last part is now more relevant.

Or just concede you can't afford what you said you're looking for, and just get out on the water in a "first boat" to get experience around the edges of working hard and saving up for the long-term keeper.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Don't be bashful about making an offer on a boat. Say if the asking price $12K I'd start at $500 and might be willing to pay $600. Worry about your own pocket and not the sellers feelings. If you really want to play hardball, have a friend loosen e'm up with a $50 offer first, then your $500 offer will look a lot better. Best case you get the boat for $50.

Did you pay $50 or $500 for your Catalina 22 Capri?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by dcstrng

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
– and anticipate/know its realities.

About the only thing money does is potentially speed up your timetable – conversely, a limited supply will slow you (or bring it to a stop). Likely; you’ll need fiberglass skills – not necessarily marine fiberglass, but skills that can be adapted. Similarly, fabric skills – not necessarily being able to make a sail (which I’ve never done), but being able to reinforce/repair, which I’ve done on every sailboat I’ve owned. Mechanical skills (the engine), electrical skills (supplying the electro-appetites of modern techno-gizmos…), etc., etc., etc. There is very little instant gratification in the budget-boat world, but there is gratification. The bottom line is turn the dream into a legitimate plan, then work the plan… hard.

Going back to my earlier suggestion about doing a search on BOOKS:

Don Casey This Old Boat covers all boats systems including basic fiberglass and canvas

Nigel Calder Boatowners Mechanical & Electrical Systems (the "Bible")

Sail Rite website great canvas DIY

Electrical Systems: Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101 covers links to popular Q&As, plus books to read