Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Full keel boats went with the dinosaurs. If you really like to sail, get a fin keel performance boat. For most cruisers it's all about the destination and thet spend most of their time at the dock or on the hook. If that's you, then sailing performance doesn't matter much. If you are a sailor then it's ALL about performance and fin keels are the only way to get that, other than some multihulls.

I notice you listed a small class racer as your boat .
A cruising boat IS ALL ABOUT THE DESTINATION and getting there in comfort.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Full keel boats went with the dinosaurs. If you really like to sail, get a fin keel performance boat. For most cruisers it's all about the destination and thet spend most of their time at the dock or on the hook. If that's you, then sailing performance doesn't matter much. If you are a sailor then it's ALL about performance and fin keels are the only way to get that, other than some multihulls.

Screw that. Why mess around? go foiling, Do 30 knots instead of 10. Anything less than foiling really is dinosaur related.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Screw that. Why mess around? go foiling, Do 30 knots instead of 10. Anything less than foiling really is dinosaur related.

That could soon be the case.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by thomm225

He wants to sail across an ocean with very little experience.

So, which type of fin keel performance boat would you suggest he get to take care of him when he's totally exhausted while trying to sail across an ocean singlehanded?


Could be an old dinosaur would be best especially since they have ......been there / done that..................and they can heave too etc

A J32 would be good for him.

The dinosaurs have a habit of getting caught from behind by storms. They don't seem to have the speed or agility to get out of the way. That's been going on for hundreds of years.

[seasick]

My niece Sophie Ciszek on MAPFRE is leading the Volvo RTW Race. With the swing keels these boats utilize, they have been clocking 500+ miles a day.

It is all in the degree of relaxation underway.

[Don C L]

Every design has its pros and cons and as you gain experience you will know better just what you are willing to give up or live without, and what you must have. You are still finding it all out, so you are not sure what to worry about and what not to. And then there is the budget too.
Long ago it was the full keel for cruising like the Tahiti Ketch, then the forefoot of the keel started to be trimmed back as in the Crealock designed Westsail 43 and the the double-ended Freya 39, which gave the boat a little more maneuverability. (BTW I know this is not exactly chronologically precise) Still a pretty full keel. In racing the keels took on a more sculpted form, often called "long keels" as you see in the boats designed in the 50s and 60s according to Cruising Club of America rules, aka CCA boats. Hence the Luders 30 and the Columbia 29 types of keels. The in the 60s designers like Lapworth and Tripp trimmed the keel, bolted it on and separated the rudder. The success of the Cal 40 pretty much sealed it for racing... no more long keels. The Columbia 50 was a hybrid in a way, a molded in keel and a spade rudder. Cruising boats after that went to blending the benefits of full and fin keels with designs like the Valiant 40 and the Peterson 44 where you have a longish fin keel, with a rudder separated but mounted on a skeg for added strength and protection. OK I know that is the Reader's Digest version, but the pros of a fuller keel and rudder attached rest in the peace of mind they bring, not so much what they do for performance. I would venture that most cruisers (I have not conducted a poll) would say the Peterson and Perry way of doing it would be the preferred design compromise by most. But that is not to say long keel boats are all dogs. In my own case, my boat performs pretty well for speed, and points ok, but it will NOT turn on a dime like my friend's Catalina 27. However if I slam something hard with my long molded in keel I will never wonder later if my keel is weakened. I also will never snag kelp or a lobster pot line with my keel or rudder, which is one little concern in MY neighborhood for MY kind of sailing. Now if I was going to Hawaii, and I could have my druthers and had more money, I'd certainly choose a different design. If I was planning to beat up the coast for 2 weeks in a strong headwind, I'd prefer a very different design.. (and size!) So anyway perhaps that is a little primer on it at least in my own view. I think I got the history sorta close to being right. Here are the boats in the order I mentioned.
TAHITI KETCH sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
WESTSAIL 43 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
FREYA 39 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
LUDERS 30 (CHEOY LEE) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
COLUMBIA 29 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
CAL 40 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
COLUMBIA 50 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
VALIANT 40 (101-199) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
KELLY-PETERSON 44 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
CATALINA 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Bilge keels look nice for really shallow areas and large tidal retreats that leave your boat high and dry and still upright, but I have never sailed one. Pretty rare in the US I'd guess and I doubt there is even one in California, but I don't know...
Anyway hope that helps.
Oh, ok and the Vega fits in there with a long keel but the forefoot has really been cut away, so it will turn quicker than my boat. I kinda like that if I hit something I will kinda ride up on it, but a more vertical keel will really smack it. That's just me.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=549

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

A J32 would be good for him.

The dinosaurs have a habit of getting caught from behind by storms. They don't seem to have the speed or agility to get out of the way. That's been going on for hundreds of years.

Be serious, now! In the size range being discussed, NO yacht will be able to outrun storms at sea, fin or full, skeg or spade. This simply is not a valid determinant for choosing the type of yacht to be sailed.

And in such small boats, ultimate seakeeping in severe conditions is more about luck than specific hull design. Caught in a big breaking sea, any small yacht can be rolled. IN general, the bigger the boat, the bigger the sea required to do this, so size does matter.

I'm long on record as preferring performance oriented boats for cruising and for crossing oceans, but I can see some advantage to a higher D/L design in very small boats, simply for load carrying capabilities. This does not specifically favour full keel designs, just relatively heavy ones. Yet Webb Chiles has recently completed a RTW in a Moore 24... an ULDB round the cans type racer, and the antithesis of the full keel crab crusher school.

Finally, it is always amusing to view pontification on these subjects by folks who have never crossed an ocean in any sort of hull design...

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Be serious, now! In the size range being discussed, NO yacht will be able to outrun storms at sea, fin or full, skeg or spade. This simply is not a valid determinant for choosing the type of yacht to be sailed.


Jim

Perhaps he was speaking with the audacity of enthusiastic hyperbole of youth!

[newhaul]

Question how many fin keel cruising boats are self righting in the event of a turtle?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Perhaps he was speaking with the audacity of enthusiastic hyperbole of youth!

No. 57 with 50 years experience. I like fast boats and they can easily get out of the way of approaching storms. But like you say, I'm not sure that's a reason to get a fin keeled boat for cruising. Slow boats that can't go to windward are often sitting ducks. It's a good thing they are built like tanks.

I would also say that I'm in the overwhelming majority on this. I really don't know of any full keeled boats being built today and there is a reason for that----- Not enough people want them.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Question how many fin keel cruising boats are self righting in the event of a turtle?

Experience dictates that you shouldn't be in conditions where that could happen. Sound judgement, not boat design, will be the determining factor of reaching old age.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Question how many fin keel cruising boats are self righting in the event of a turtle?

Now I have not been in a capsize of a sailboat over 20 feet, but I think they all are... they won't all right at the same speed perhaps of course. A beamier boat has a different response compared to one of our skinny boats. But keep in mind when a boat gets rolled by a wave there are other waves ready to nudge it back over. If it lost its rigging and/or sails it'll pop up considerably faster.
Even though this righting curve shows the boat they show is stable upside down, out in a rough sea, it'll get the nudge it needs when it rides up on the face of a following wave.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Experience dictates that you shouldn't be in conditions where that could happen. Sound judgement, not boat design, will be the determining factor of reaching old age.

while this is true believe me when I say weird s@#t happens when out there.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Question how many fin keel cruising boats are self righting in the event of a turtle?

Well given the fact that fin keel boats generally have better righting moment numbers for a given weight, I'd say more of them than full keelers.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Now I have not been in a capsize of a sailboat over 20 feet, but I think they all are... they won't all right at the same speed perhaps of course. A beamier boat has a different response compared to one of our skinny boats. But keep in mind when a boat gets rolled by a wave there are other waves ready to nudge it back over. If it lost its rigging and/or sails it'll pop up considerably faster.
Even though this righting curve shows the boat they show is stable upside down, out in a rough sea, it'll get the nudge it needs when it rides up on the face of a following wave.

I should have added though that narrow CCA boats typically do have a very small (or even none) "region of negative stability" in their curves. (Wish I could find the one for the Columbia 29; its curve does not drop down into negative stability.)