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Old 15-12-2017, 21:23   #226
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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Another issue is she has a 10' beam meaning she would need a permit to go through most states and across all the provinces I believe. No idea how much those are or where to even go for them.
http://www.greatharbourtrawlers.com/...resources.html

Good for stateside anyway
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Old 16-12-2017, 06:10   #227
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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Towing Resources

Good for stateside anyway
That's surprisingly cheap. Thanks
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Old 16-12-2017, 06:34   #228
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Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

Lots of good replies. I think skipper resourcefulness and attitude are huge. If needed to spend <20K then a vintage full keel like luders 33 or Alberg 30-35 may be best bang for buck. My former looters had features like solid bronze rudder post, glassed massive hull deck joint, encapsulated keel.
But my current tartan 40 is faster stiffer and tracks better so at higher price point a better offshore boat for me
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Old 16-12-2017, 06:44   #229
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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As for my willingness and resolve. Like any person determined to do something incredibly difficult and unknown to me I am of course a little nervous. I think given all the hands on experience in the world I would be a little nervous to set out alone across an ocean. There have been nights I've thought about it and tried to talk myself out of the idea. The things I'll miss and the things that I could be giving up if it doesn't work out. But likewise there have been many more nights where I've thought about how much I want the experience and to truly live life even if it means breaching that unknown. I believe I have the courage and the discipline to achieve it as well as the brains to prepare myself as best I can. Talk is cheap and even writing this I can't really know what will happen or how I'll respond when out there alone. But I do know that the fear of not taking that chance troubles me far more.
If you're not a bit nervous before you set out on a long passage to an area that is unknown to you, there is something wrong with you. Nervous energy can be productive if channeled into preparation and thoughtful planning. And part of the nervousness is based on the fact that you know something is going to break or fail and you're going to have to deal with it. It's confidence in your ability to fix/deal with it that allows some to leave the dock while others do not.

For my own part, my nervousness pretty well vanishes the moment I leave the dock. I've done everything I can do and my focus turns to managing the boat. You quickly settle into a rhythm and routines that define your days and allow you to focus (and enjoy) the tasks at hand. By the second or third day you're almost in a dream state where the rest of the world has melted away.

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I'll definitely read some of the books suggested here and the sites. I've been taking notes and saving things as we go along. I'm still waiting for that new Cornell's atlas to come available as well. In the mean time I'm trying to refrain from asking silly questions about current, wind directions and sailing routes. At least until I can reference that book and learn a little myself.
There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers (as you've seen from this thread lol). To be a good voyager you need in some respects to be, in no particular order, a good seaman, a good sailor, a mechanic, an electrician, a rigger, a navigator, a weatherman, a problem solver, and hopefully, a good cook. That's a lot to learn and it never ends. I've advocated for getting out there and crewing on a long voyage but don't for a minute think I'm suggesting you put the books down or stop asking questions.

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In response to what you guys are saying about needing to know what to look for in an old boat. I have read a few things giving some pointers on where to look when inspecting. As Ez suggested keel bolts, mast condition, stress or cracks in the fibreglass or blistering, soft spots around the deck, stress cracks around chain plates and rigging connectors. Outside of that perspective I don't know much about hull strength or determining minor details that could be key to major flaws. I've heard of the tap method on the bulkhead from outside the boat and the sound difference between good and bad but have never done it.
As Evans points out, no survey, no matter how thorough, is going to turn up every problem in an old boat. The constraints of time and access almost guarantee it.

As an example I had a survey done on my current boat by a very competent surveyor and was accompanied by someone who has owned two Valiants and put probably 100,000 miles on them. We spent 8 hours crawling over the boat. The list of things we did not find that I've since had to address is not trivial. Among notable items, the mast step was almost completely corroded away, yet looked fine when visually inspected. It was only taking a wire brush to it to clean it, with the stick down, that it's true condition was revealed. Cost of repair? $700. Just how it goes.

I collect vintage dive watches and there is an adage among watch collectors that you "buy the seller, not the watch". With vintage watches if certain parts have been replaced their value can be dramatically lower. You're usually buying at a distance and so the reputation of the seller is almost more important than what you can determine from pictures of the watch. Buying a boat is much the same. If the seller is a knowledgeable, experienced, and passionate seaman/sailor that can tell you much about how the boat was likely maintained. If they're an engineer, you might have hit the jackpot. On the other hand if you run into a seller who seems like a casual, occasional seller you might best stay away. Chances are they don't even know what's wrong with the boat because they never bothered to inspect and maintain it properly. What they tell you about the boat's condition is virtually worthless simply due to their ignorance.

All other things being equal, the best value in used older boats are those that have been recently refit and are unexpectedly put on the market due to health or financial issues. You never get back out what you put into a boat. And the seller might have pressure to sell as well, further softening the price. While one of these boats might be 2x as expensive as a "beater", it's actually worth 3x to you because that's what you'd have to spend to make the beater right. Let the previous owner take the hit of the refit and save you the cost.
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Old 16-12-2017, 06:54   #230
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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That's really strong support for leaving the life rafts at home. I guess they could be useful in favorable weather conditions but that's when the chances of needing it are the least. This might make for a good thread, entertaining at the least.
No, it's not strong support of leaving life rafts at home. Calling one anecdotal story "strong support" for anything is just stupid.

He had a raft on the boat. He didn't use it because he elected to abandon ship before he needed it, and because a ship was able to come to his aid.

There are plenty of threads on the decision to carry a life raft or not.
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Old 16-12-2017, 07:08   #231
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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No, it's not strong support of leaving life rafts at home. Calling one anecdotal story "strong support" for anything is just stupid.

He had a raft on the boat. He didn't use it because he elected to abandon ship before he needed it, and because a ship was able to come to his aid.

There are plenty of threads on the decision to carry a life raft or not.
I could see the merit in not having an escape plan. I guess there is a sense of comfort in having that raft handy just like there's a sense of comfort in having a PLB. Some people said don't even bring one of those because you'll be tempted to use it the first emotional crash you have. Likewise I've been told not to take a sat phone or anything linking me to the world.

Although I can see where people are coming from and to each their own. I'd rather have something and never need it than need it and not have it. The idea of floating unprotected in the Pacific sounds rather unappealing. I'd rather be in that raft than wondering what shark is going to take a chunk out of my ass. That being said I'd rather be on my boat than in that inflatable raft. Personally I've never been one to panic in a bad situation. I'm no Macguyver and won't boast to my incredible talent to fix anything in a whim. But I usually stay fairly calm and resolute and then assess the situation and start thinking of solutions rather than letting my mind run away. It's funny Evans mentioned EMS workers and the such because originally I went to school to become a Paramedic.
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Old 16-12-2017, 07:22   #232
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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I could see the merit in not having an escape plan. I guess there is a sense of comfort in having that raft handy just like there's a sense of comfort in having a PLB. Some people said don't even bring one of those because you'll be tempted to use it the first emotional crash you have. Likewise I've been told not to take a sat phone or anything linking me to the world.

Although I can see where people are coming from and to each their own. I'd rather have something and never need it than need it and not have it. The idea of floating unprotected in the Pacific sounds rather unappealing. I'd rather be in that raft than wondering what shark is going to take a chunk out of my ass. That being said I'd rather be on my boat than in that inflatable raft. Personally I've never been one to panic in a bad situation. I'm no Macguyver and won't boast to my incredible talent to fix anything in a whim. But I usually stay fairly calm and resolute and then assess the situation and start thinking of solutions rather than letting my mind run away. It's funny Evans mentioned EMS workers and the such because originally I went to school to become a Paramedic.
That fact that every major ocean race requires a life raft should tell you something. For the most part, these safety regulations (OSRs) are drafted and refined based on learnings from previous races. They are worth consulting when outfitting your boat for offshore. I've prepped boats for races and done inspections and all of the requirements are sensible based on my experience.

Every situation is different. There is a saying "step up to the life raft" meaning only use it when the boat is actually sinking. That's based in part on the 79' Fastnet race where some crew perished in their life rafts only to have their boats, which they had abandoned, survive the storm. But in Skip's case he was concerned about a catestrophic event in which he would not be able to deploy the raft, probably the breaking apart of the boat while he was down below. A life raft is a tool with different applicability in different situations. It has saved some people and not others. The decision to carry one or not is personal and, unfortunately, largely financial for many.
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Old 16-12-2017, 08:33   #233
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

The only way I could see not carrying one would be if I literally couldn't afford it. New 6 man crafts with the hooded ceiling run about $1600. I don't think I'd need the insulated ones since water temps wouldn't be dramatically low. I have found 4 man without the roof for as low as $900 new. I'm unsure which is the better choice. I suppose even a dinghie is better than floating in just a jacket. I don't think I would go for a used life raft even if it hasn't been deployed. Seems like one of those items you're better buying new with proper inspection certification. I think the raft, PLB, vane system and either a drogue/sea anchor are at the top of my list as far as additional equipment goes. Not including any electronic navigation and etc.
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Old 16-12-2017, 08:48   #234
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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No, it's not strong support of leaving life rafts at home. Calling one anecdotal story "strong support" for anything is just stupid.

He had a raft on the boat. He didn't use it because he elected to abandon ship before he needed it, and because a ship was able to come to his aid.

There are plenty of threads on the decision to carry a life raft or not.
The majority of cruisers don't carry life rafts. In colder water areas they are much more popular but not in the tropics. I'm certainly not so narrow minded as to call it stupid to not carry one. Now if I had a boat with know issues that could sink the boat without notice, for example sever blistering, I may feel different about it. The perceived competence of oneself and boat certainly plays a role in that personal choice.
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Old 16-12-2017, 08:56   #235
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pirate Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

Dont think I have heard of a boat sinking due to osmosis..
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Old 16-12-2017, 09:20   #236
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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Dont think I have heard of a boat sinking due to osmosis..
Me either but I know some that would had it not been for bilge bumps. Why would someone go to the great expense of repairing blisters if they weren't a problem? Some boats have minor blisters that aren't considered structural and other have know issues that render the boats economically totaled. It's not a function of the quality of the boat manufacturer either. For example, some of the Valiants were destroyed by blisters and they are by all other account great boats, if you can stand the rolling downwind.
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Old 16-12-2017, 09:56   #237
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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The majority of day cruisers sailing around a protected bay don't carry life rafts. In colder water areas they are much more popular but not in the tropics. I'm certainly not so narrow minded as to call it stupid to not carry one. Now if I had a boat with know issues that could sink the boat without notice, for example sever blistering, I may feel different about it. The perceived competence of oneself and boat certainly plays a role in that personal choice.
Let me correct that for you, unless of course you have some evidence that the majority of people who sail offshore don't carry a life raft.

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Old 16-12-2017, 10:18   #238
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

Sorry Pete 7. I clearly stated "the majority of cruisers" don't carry life rafts, not "day cruisers". I stand by the accuracy of that statement. Please don't bastardize my opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Altering my comments to imply I said something totally different in an attempt to discredit my actual statement is not going to gain you any respect.
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Old 16-12-2017, 10:26   #239
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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Sorry Pete 7. I clearly stated "the majority of cruisers" don't carry life rafts, not "day cruisers". I stand by the accuracy of that statement. Please don't bastardize my opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
agreed concerning personal opinions however when giving opinions it should be made clear it is just that .
You didn't say it was your opinion you said
And I Quote:
The majority of cruisers don't carry life rafts. In colder water areas they are much more popular but not in the tropics.
End quote.
That statement sounded more like it was a fact . So I ask what datum do you base that statement on?
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Old 16-12-2017, 10:40   #240
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Re: Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

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Sorry Pete 7. I clearly stated "the majority of cruisers" don't carry life rafts, not "day cruisers". I stand by the accuracy of that statement. Please don't bastardize my opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Altering my comments to imply I said something totally different in an attempt to discredit my actual statement is not going to gain you any respect.
You couldn't be more Misinformed on the subject if you tried. The facts are that almost all offshore cruisers carry life rafts.
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