WARNING : Sailrite Machine (240v/international) version does not work with inverters

[Slight Adrift]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

And it doesn’t work? How about when it transfers shore power? Generator?

Edit: configure the inverter for 55 or 60Hz and see what happens…

Edit 2: turn the plug around or if your plug doesn’t allow that, rewire and swap phase and neutral conductors.

Sorry, it did work for a little bit with a horrible sound from the inverter, and then the light (from the sailrite) blew tripping my AC system. It works fine directly connected to shore power. I'm not game connecting it again to the boat obviously.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Slight Adrift

Email directly from Matt at Sailrite:

Inverters with an output of 220/230V will never work. This means there are very limited inverter options for use with this particular WorkerB Power Pack. If usage via an inverter is a key requirement, Sailrite recommends purchasing a 110V WorkerB machine/system and running from any 500W or better inverter with a 100-120V output.


The key statements here are that no WorkerB will run from a 12V to 230V Inverter. And if you want it to work from a 12V to 110V inverter then you must have the WorkerB dedicated 110V box. This is not ideal but these are facts. The workaround is to have both boxes and switch back and forth. But in your case you would need a new inverter that outputs 110V.

First, thanks for the added detail.

Sailrite's response talks about 230v. OP discussed 240v. Is this an issue related to frequency as Jedi alludes? Or split phase (US 240v standard) vs 230V as is standard in many countries?

Just trying to understand the root of the issue.

[Slight Adrift]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

First, thanks for the added detail.

Sailrite's response talks about 230v. OP discussed 240v. Is this an issue related to frequency as Jedi alludes? Or split phase (US 240v standard) vs 230V as is standard in many countries?

Just trying to understand the root of the issue.

Yes correct. 230v. I just assumed 240v would mean anything 220-240v. Trying to edit original post now. new here

[Wotname]

Sailrite might know about their sewing machines but clearly they don't know much about mains AC and inverters.

To claim it won't work on any 230V inverter is simply silly if it works OK on 230V mains. Sure it may not work on some inverters but if the inverter can supply the same output (voltage/frequency) as the mains, then the sewing machine can not tell the difference. To claim otherwise is foolish

[Slight Adrift]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

First, thanks for the added detail.

Sailrite's response talks about 230v. OP discussed 240v. Is this an issue related to frequency as Jedi alludes? Or split phase (US 240v standard) vs 230V as is standard in many countries?

Just trying to understand the root of the issue.

Here is the other video they sent me:

https://www.sailrite.com/WorkerB-110V-Inverter-Tests

Just coppied from sailrite website:

Please Note: The 100-230V WorkerB Power Pack may work on an inverter/generator of 600W or more of the Modified Sine Wave or Square Wave types. Pure (or Digital Synthesized Wave) inverters/generators will disrupt the “phase cutting” technology of the WorkerB since they hide high-frequency current in the waveform. Although the 100-230V WorkerB will work on 100-230V household power, it will only work with some inverters/generators with an output of 100-120V. Inverters with an output of 220/230V will never work. This means there are very limited inverter options for use with this particular WorkerB Power Pack. If usage via an inverter is a key requirement, Sailrite recommends purchasing a 110V WorkerB machine/system and running from any 500W or better inverter with a 100-120V output.

[Slight Adrift]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Sailrite might know about their sewing machines but clearly they don't know much about mains AC and inverters.

To claim it won't work on any 230V inverter is simply silly if it works OK on 230V mains. Sure it may not work on some inverters but if the inverter can supply the same output (voltage/frequency) as the mains, then the sewing machine can not tell the difference. To claim otherwise is foolish

Agreed! I've lost all faith in the company. I personally think they made heaps of product before they realised the issue and now still need to offload product.

[wholybee]

Can you get the older motor that isn't a "worker-B" and would that work?

My guess is that the issue is related to the phase shift caused by AC motors. With an AC motor, the phase and current will be out of phase with each other. Perhaps combined with whatever black box speed control they use, most inverters can't cope. It would be interesting to look at the power feed on an oscilloscope as it fails.

I would consider it a poor design of the worker B system, but went unnoticed during development since that is a more industrial design that would normally always run from the grid. Remember, Sailrite is really a rebranded machine that wasn't originally designed for sailors.

[Slight Adrift]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Can you get the older motor that isn't a "worker-B" and would that work?

My guess is that the issue is related to the phase shift caused by AC motors. With an AC motor, the phase and current will be out of phase with each other. Perhaps combined with whatever black box speed control they use, most inverters can't cope. It would be interesting to look at the power feed on an oscilloscope as it fails.

I would consider it a poor design of the worker B system, but went unnoticed during development since that is a more industrial design that would normally always run from the grid. Remember, Sailrite is really a rebranded machine that wasn't originally designed for sailors.

I assume the old version worked just fine on all inverters.
Sailrite not originally designed for sailors? Were they industrial or something?

[FlyingScot]

Our 120V LSZ Worker B won't run on our dual 12/3000/120-50 setup in parallel outputting through a Blue Sea ELCI 50A breaker. It trips the ELCI everytime. We run it from our Victron 800VA full sine wave inverter (no ELCI) without issues. The rest of the boat equipment runs perfectily through the ELCI breaker.

[rls8r]

Fine print?

The last part of the "Description" of the International Sailrite machine on the Sailrite web page says, in text set off from the rest by a different color background, in bold type:

"If you plan on using the Ultrafeed with an inverter/generator, please read the note at the bottom of the page below the Specifications column regarding inverter voltage compatibility."

The note at the bottom of the page below the Specifications column says:

"Please Note: The 100-230V WorkerB Power Pack may work on an inverter/generator of 600W or more of the Modified Sine Wave or Square Wave types. Pure (or Digital Synthesized Wave) inverters/generators will disrupt the “phase cutting” technology of the WorkerB since they hide high-frequency current in the waveform. Although the 100-230V WorkerB will work on 100-230V household power, it will only work with some inverters/generators with an output of 100-120V. Inverters with an output of 220/230V will never work. This means there are very limited inverter options for use with this particular WorkerB Power Pack. If usage via an inverter is a key requirement, Sailrite recommends purchasing a 110V WorkerB machine/system and running from any 500W or better inverter with a 100-120V output."

Not really sure how much more - or what else - they can do to warn prospective purchasers.

[Slight Adrift]

Originally Posted by rls8r

Fine print?

The last part of the "Description" of the International Sailrite machine on the Sailrite web page says, in text set off from the rest by a different color background, in bold type:

"If you plan on using the Ultrafeed with an inverter/generator, please read the note at the bottom of the page below the Specifications column regarding inverter voltage compatibility."

The note at the bottom of the page below the Specifications column says:

"Please Note: The 100-230V WorkerB Power Pack may work on an inverter/generator of 600W or more of the Modified Sine Wave or Square Wave types. Pure (or Digital Synthesized Wave) inverters/generators will disrupt the “phase cutting” technology of the WorkerB since they hide high-frequency current in the waveform. Although the 100-230V WorkerB will work on 100-230V household power, it will only work with some inverters/generators with an output of 100-120V. Inverters with an output of 220/230V will never work. This means there are very limited inverter options for use with this particular WorkerB Power Pack. If usage via an inverter is a key requirement, Sailrite recommends purchasing a 110V WorkerB machine/system and running from any 500W or better inverter with a 100-120V output."

Yes, like you have just stated, the note at the bottom of the page, aka fine print.
Thank you for bringing more awareness to this issue

[fxykty]

We have a 2019 Sailrite Ultrafeed LSZ-1 220-240V (50 Hz) machine. It works perfectly fine running off of our VE Quattro inverter that outputs 230V 50Hz. If you have an inverter outputting the correct voltage and Hz values then the machine’s motor shouldn’t be able to tell the difference between shore power or inverter power. Are you sure that your inverter is outputting the correct power? Modified sine output could be the culprit also?

Weird issue.

Edit: OK, this is a WorkerB Pack issue. Since it’s the default motor option on all new machines, it looks like boats operating a 230V 50Hz with a pure sine inverter are SOOL. You may be able to change your inverter output profile to modified sine wave or square wave and it seems that should work. But then what about other equipment that needs pure sine wave? Did Sailrite screw up this motor?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Slight Adrift

Yes, like you have just stated, the note at the bottom of the page, aka fine print.
Thank you for bringing more awareness to this issue

I know you're frustrated. But what more could Sailrite do? They put a prominent note in an obvious place directing a buyer to read a very important disclaimer further down the description. That's hardly fine print.

My guess is you're right that Sailrite didn't realize there was a compatibility problem until after the units were in production. But getting a 110v/120v 500w inverter isn't a bad workaround.

[s/v Jedi]

Well it’s obvious that Sailrite aren’t EE’s. The story they bring is not correct.

A pure sine inverter has much less harmonic distortion than a modified or square wave inverter so it definitely is not related to higher frequency components in the waveform.

The exploding lamp indicates that a 110V lamp was installed in a 230V model.

The ELCI breaker tripping indicates a ground leak. All the inverters not working correctly indicates a terrible power factor or simply a reversed conductor, where the machine expects the grounded neutral on the hot/phase contact. This isn’t just an assembly mistake but also bad design. We saw that with early electronic dimmers as well.

My first thought would be to try it via an benchtop safety isolation transformer, which takes most possible issues away and also allows lowering voltage etc. The thing is that we didn’t design it so why would we try to fix it

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Slight Adrift

Agreed! I've lost all faith in the company. I personally think they made heaps of product before they realised the issue and now still need to offload product.

I have used a 110 machine for 15 years, don’t lose faith the equipment is pretty much bomb proof, they should offer the old 230 motor to people who need them, at a discount of course……

Love your utube channel, anyone who makes a remote controlled boat is great in my books…..