WARNING : Sailrite Machine (240v/international) version does not work with inverters

[senormechanico]

Just my 2 cents, There are many brands of 240 volt inverters, both pure sine and modified which have no split phase output. IOW, it's a 2 wire output with no ground connection.
My 30 years experience in electronic servicing leads me to suspect the sewing machine in question depends on that ground connection to work correctly.

[Slight Adrift]

So 90% (that’s just a guess obviously) of the reviews I watched were boat owners, on boats. Had a look on their website (obviously not thoroughly enough) and ordered it. I feel like I’m a normal consumer, and I didn’t see the warnings. I feel like, as a minimum, Sailrite should have a check box on their website on the cart button or checkout button (230v/international version) stating that it will not work with inverters. This would be a minor insignificant blip for people working off mains but really weed out those people where this product is not fit for purpose.

My Victron 110v (800w) inverter arrives soon so I’ll let you know if I get this machine working (he says as he tumbles further down the rabbit hole &#128514

[Eder]

Originally Posted by SvenG

What inverter won't it work with ?

The Sailrite should not even know that it is an inverter if it is a true sine inverter at the correct Hz.

Bizarre claim.

Actually the 120v Sailrite LZV doesn't like a true sine wave inverter (blows the fuse from time to time} while my old 2009 inverter runs it just fine.

[catalystcat]

I think some people are getting a bit confused about what works or doesn't work, the reason why, and why one particular version of the controller won't work with the "Pure Sine Wave" inverter.


The single voltage Sail Rite Power Pack should work with any kind of inverter. That is what it says on their site and is what the video link shows. In fact, as someone pointed out, the Pure Sine Wave one probably works best. That's because its output most closely approximates a sinewave.

SINGLE VOLTAGE SYSTEM - prob a ground issue

So, for the single voltage system, as many have explained, it's a pretty basic EE problem and it should work unless something is screwed up (e.g., a ground connection/bonding/leakage problem as Jedi mentions). Motor controllers are notoriously sensitive to bad grounds, unbonded grounds, or ground leakage, depending on their particular designs. In fact, my Splendide W/D has exactly this problem. The good news is that an isolation transformer almost always does the trick. This is further confirmed by the SailRite notice on the single voltage 110 system's web page. It calls out making sure you have a well-grounded system. "WARNING: Always plug the WorkerB cord into a grounded outlet and do not use an adapter without a ground pin. We do not recommend the use of long extension cords to plug in the WorkerB Power Pack."

PURE SINE WAVE CASE - quirky incompatibility with Pure Sine Wave

HOWEVER, the same thing that makes the Pure Sine Wave the best approximation of a real sine wave is the same thing that screws up the multi-voltage controller (the 100-230 power pack). That's because it's kind of an electronics, rather than straightforward electrical problem.

The multivoltage system uses what they call a "phase cutting technology" to regulate the voltage. That is kind of a permutation/modification of pulse width modulation. It only uses some of the input energy in each cycle. Unlike PWM which uses a simple duty cycle control, phase cutting uses phase of the input wave to trigger firing (it's even called phase fired control by some people). It is supposed to have the advantage of better maintaining sync than basic PWM.

Here's where it gets tricky. The pure sinewave inverter chops the signal into tinier bits to construct a much smoother approximation of a sine than other D to A types of inverters. That seems great; but, the tinier bits correspond to higher frequencies. Some versions of phase cutting (I guess that includes the Sail Rite one) do fine sampling to more precisely determine the phase of the input signal. And, this determination is the trigger for firing the pulse. The high frequency riding on the base sinewave can screw up the phase determination and thus screw up the whole phase cutting operation.

At least that's what Sail Rite is claiming. "Pure (or Digital Synthesized Wave) inverters/generators will disrupt the “phase cutting” technology of the WorkerB since they hide high-frequency current in the waveform."


"Although the 100-230V WorkerB will work on 100-230V household power, it will only work with some inverters/generators with an output of 100-120V. Inverters with an output of 220/230V will never work. "


(Note that they also mention that the multivoltage system MAY work with "Modified Sine Wave or Square Wave types". So, the same problem could theoretically happen with those systems, though the probability is much lower. )

I haven't seen their phase detection circuit diagram, but it is very plausible that the higher frequency components carried by the pure sine wave could interfere with the phase determination and cause all kinds of problems for the phase cutting version of the controller.

So, I would guess that problems with the single voltage system (110V) would likely be due to ground issues and that multivoltage problems are more likely due to high frequency feedthrough that screws up their approach (phase cutting) to voltage regulation in the multivoltage version.

[grantmc]

The detail certainly is in the fine print. And I am doubtful many prospective buyers would read the 'fine print' on the Sailrite web site pages related to the 230V machines. For myself I would not get further than:
Motor Technical Information
Input Watts: 375
Output Watts: 350 (Max.)
Amperage: 0.38 (Starting); 3 (Max.)
Input Voltage: 100-230 VAC, 50/60 Hz

For Sailrite® Ultrafeed® LSZ Walking Foot Sewing Machine (100-230V)
refer https://www.sailrite.com/Sailrite-Ul...chine-100-230V
OR for Sailrite® Ultrafeed® LS Walking Foot Sewing Machine (100-230V) refer https://www.sailrite.com/Sailrite-Ul...chine-100-230V

I'd also point out the following in the product warrantee: The Ultrafeed limited warranty does not cover any damage that results from improper installation or storage, ... insufficient/excessive electrical supply, ....

Several posters have suggested modifying inverters to get around the problem. I can't see that in following that advice, and something stuffs up with the machine that Sailrite will happily fix it for free. Irrespective of the fact that the warrantee doesn't cover the cost of any freight.
https://www.sailrite.com/PDF/5-Year-...ranty-2022.pdf

I'd also posit that in a number of locations even the 230-240 volt mains power can be dodgy.

[nfbr]

It’s true with Victron too. We got caught.
I have a seperate small 110v inverter to run it.

The 220v version blows fuses when on a sine wave inverter. They have done something funky and dumb with their speed controller that the inverter switching frequency causes problems with the speed control switching.

Caution. I’m not sure the motors are the same. They told me they were different despite same labels.

[windcastle1]

Would have been nice if Sailrite had an oscilloscope between their machine and the inverter to view the frequency and voltage. Only way to find out why one inverter worked over another. Also would have been nice if they tried one of the larger better well known inverters like Mastervolt, Victron etc.

[caffel]

Suggest trying an isolation transformer before you give up.

[piloto]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Sailrite might know about their sewing machines but clearly they don't know much about mains AC and inverters.

To claim it won't work on any 230V inverter is simply silly if it works OK on 230V mains. Sure it may not work on some inverters but if the inverter can supply the same output (voltage/frequency) as the mains, then the sewing machine can not tell the difference. To claim otherwise is foolish

I would think this is as much a frequency (50hz vs, 60 hz) issue as voltage 220/230V vs. 240V.

[nfbr]

Tried. Didnt work

[nfbr]

Neither. It’s the ~20khz overlay for true sine generation. They work ok with older non sine inverters.
Looks like the control / rpm sense they implemented gets interfered with by the switching. Interestigly both LF and HF sine inverters show same behaviour, as do inverter generators like Honda.
110/60hz version works fine

Sailrite cocked up the design here.

I dont know why the fault blows controller fuses, but it does.

[CarinaPDX]

It does sound like the HF switching power supply technology in the inverter may be throwing a curve to the motor controller.

I am also wondering about the startup situation. Everyone assumes that the inverter output is the same as a wall outlet but that is not the case. From my very limited understanding modern inverters don't have high power available the instant the load is attached: the inverter controller has low power available and if a load drags down the voltage the controller quickly ramps up the power to bring the voltage into spec. (Some small wall worts - i.e. power bricks - don't draw enough to trigger the inverter to start output. At least that was a problem in the past.) This works fine with motors and the analog world but a microprocessor-driven motor controller might be sensing and reacting before the inverter can respond. I can imagine this would be worse for pure sine wave than modified sine wave (more properly modified square wave). The old recommendation was to plug in a small load to the inverter in order to get it putting out before using the problem load. I wonder if that would help here. (just brainstorming)

My first laptop back in the mid-90's was a Mac, which I originally used occasionally with an inverter (modified sine wave - pure sine wave was not yet a thing). I burned out a couple of power bricks before I realized that those square wave inputs were the cause. Most power bricks today are designed to survive inverter usage, but not everything is. Clearly the designer of this motor controller did not do their homework. Still, I think it is best to stick with pure sine wave if possible even if that doesn't help here.

Greg

[geoffschultz]

Clearly SailRite has an issue with their (220v) WorkerB motors and isn't willing to fess up to their problem. The fact that the 110v WorkerB motors work, and the 220v ones don't, is dead give-away. I really dislike that they offer a technical explanation (frequency) of the issue, but clearly don't know what they're talking about.

I have a new boat being built that has no shore power direct feeds (everything feeds from inverters), so this clearly will be an issue.

[Cirion]

I just received my new LSZ-1 and I did see the video and the "fine print" before ordering. So I went with the 110v version.

I tried using a stepdown transformer and that one acts just like on the video of the 100-230v version that is working, but does not quite sound right.

I'm gonna try a different stepdown transformer and see...

I was hoping to be able to use a stepdown transformer both in my house and on the boat inverter. Instead of using a dedicated 110v inverter.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If they can't explain why it won't work, then as far as I'm concerned, their support is full of crap and doesn't understand the problem. There has to be something about the power being fed to the unit that it doesn't like, but it should be a fixable issue.

I've worked in Technical Support in the enterprise space for well over 20 years. A customer is in no way entitled to know why something is broken, how it was fixed, or why something isn't supported.

You're entitled to know what is supported. Anything else not explicitly defined as supported is officially NOT Supported. You may get an answer, but that doesn't mean you should or that you're entitled to it.

The world doesn't always work the way with think it does, or how it should. It is what it is.