Serpentine belts ???

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don’t think you can get anywhere near 150 amps out of a small frame Alt. continuously

Certainly not normally, I always mean large frame for big amps over long runs, for regular gear even 100A

I am very confident that a custom Maine Sail product would live up to its claims and you'd get any required support as well.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ggray

if batteries are deeply discharged, when you first start charging, charge only one bank (if you are set up this way).

Another cheap kludge workaround if a 60A ceiling is OK

Blue Sea CL-Series BatteryLink[emoji769] ACR (PN 7600) is discontinued but still come up occasionally, around $80

can be used to limit current to 60A at 25°C

[Rotten Ricky]

You are right that the larger alternator pulley will increase torque, decrease slippage and hopefully decrease belt dust. But slowing your alternator will decrease airflow and risk cooking your alternator!

The better solution is to increase the size of your driving pulley on the crank - but has anyone actually had any luck in obtaining a bigger crankshaft v-belt pulley? Unfortunately they usually have complications regarding the seals etc so a common pulley will not do the job. The costly switch to a serpentine belt seems to be the only solution when increasing the belt speed.

I suggest that you make sure that the engine compartment has very good ventilation so it has lower ambient temperatures in it as well, if you want the alternator etc to last.

Cheers, RR.

[ggray]

Originally Posted by Rotten Ricky

You are right that the larger alternator pulley will increase torque, decrease slippage and hopefully decrease belt dust. But slowing your alternator will decrease airflow and risk cooking your alternator!
<snip>

Maybe, but wouldn't slower rotation/charging also generate less heat?

<snip>

The better solution is to increase the size of your driving pulley on the crank - but has anyone actually had any luck in obtaining a bigger crankshaft v-belt pulley? Unfortunately they usually have complications regarding the seals etc so a common pulley will not do the job. The costly switch to a serpentine belt seems to be the only solution when increasing the belt speed.

<snip>
I assume you mean increase the diameter of all sheaves? That would work if you could do it.
<snip>

I suggest that you make sure that the engine compartment has very good ventilation so it has lower ambient temperatures in it as well, if you want the alternator etc to last.

Cheers, RR.

Yes, blower aimed at alternator.

[robert sailor]

If you have a friendly machinist you might consider installing a 2 belt system, these can sometimes be set up for fairly cheap but nothing beats a serpentine pulley system. My personal experience is that anything much above 75 amps is just about the limit for a single belt, keep it tight and perfectly aligned.

[NYSail]

Main Sail advised me with my current upgrade.... I went with the 150 series 6 and he advised me to dial output back to around 120 amp which will give the system better operating condition’s. Also I have a well ventilated engine compartment which is also key. On my last boat I put a 70 amp series 6 and had a dust
Problem.....no serpentine belt but will say that my 330 ah agm Bank was alway topped off. The small framed alts are what they are..... a great improvement in a challenged environment.
I am tired of running 5 hours to find my inadequate 80 amp dumb hitachi left me inadequately charged.
Greg

[john61ct]

Put in an LFP bank or turn on a 100+A consumer and a single vee will at least dust, likely slip.

It isn't the alt max rating that matters, it's the demand pulling the power that sets the HP load.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don’t think you can get anywhere near 150 amps out of a small frame Alt. continuously.
I keep asking and not getting answers. For instance, one well known and respected individual is apparently pushing a small frame for all its worth, had Mark Grasser I think remove the diodes and remote them.
However he didn’t start with a 200 amp Alt, he started with a 130.

Seeing as I am the only one who likely fits that description I don't know why you assume I am "pushing small frame alt for all they are worth" or why you assume I am running a 130A alt? I am running a fully custom CS130D frame with custom 160A stator & rotor combo externally rectified. Belt manager has been set to 0 for two years. Before I moved to external regulation I ran that same alt, with a 140A stator rotor combo, at 115A to 120A into LFP. Only on rare occasions would it hit the alt temp limit.

Sure I would love to see everyone use a large frame alt, heck I build and offer the most affordable externally regulated J180 you'll find, but by the time you are done with fittment conversion costs (custom mounting) it can get very expensive thus a small frame, set up to run in the given application, is usually much more palatable for most so long as you fully under stand the "rating" never was a continuous rating...

Every alternator needs to be set up using hot run procedures in the engine room and vessel it will be running in and how much output you can get in bulk will depend upon cooling / ambient engine room temp and alt shaft RPM...

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Seeing as I am the only one who likely fits that description I don't know why you assume I am "pushing small frame alt for all they are worth" or why you assume I am running a 130A alt? I am running a fully custom CS130D frame with custom 160A stator & rotor combo externally rectified. Belt manager has been set to 0 for two years. Before I moved to external regulation I ran that same alt, with a 140A stator rotor combo, at 115A to 120A into LFP. Only on rare occasions would it hit the alt temp limit.



Sure I would love to see everyone use a large frame alt, heck I build and offer the most affordable externally regulated J180 you'll find, but by the time you are done with fittment conversion costs (custom mounting) it can get very expensive thus a small frame, set up to run in the given application, is usually much more palatable for most so long as you fully under stand the "rating" never was a continuous rating...



Every alternator needs to be set up using hot run procedures in the engine room and vessel it will be running in and how much output you can get in bulk will depend upon cooling / ambient engine room temp and alt shaft RPM...

It was not meant as a negative at all, quite the opposite I can assure you.
You and only one or two others that when you post, I take it as gospel pretty much. Minaret for composites is another.
I apologize if it was taken that way, I meant it to mean that you were really testing to see what is really achievable, as it seems you are almost a one man band in the what can a product actually achieve group, and the guy who often debunks myths and theories, like the does a fuel tank condensate, before your test I would have said of course it does, now I have doubts.
I got the 13O from the part number, I was mistaken.

However if you don’t mind, why did you not chose to run a 200 amp alternator?
On a standard installation, meaning just a Balmar serpentine belt kit in an average engine room, no forced ventilation and an off the shelf alternator, how much is a 150 ish sized Alt good for continuously before heat gets high enough that longevity of the Alt becomes a concern?
How much more can you get out of a 200, continuously?

I clip my 165 Mark Grasser Alt at 95c and have belt manager set at 4, a number I got either from one of your posts or off your website, I’m not sure which. However this gives me continuously about 80 amps, these are conservative settings I know, but I’m curious in the exact same temp limits would a 200 amp alternator deliver how much more?

See I suspect that the continuous limit is a function of heat build up, and that you have two ways to increase output without exceeding a temp limit, either make it more efficient so that it makes less heat, or increase the cooling.
Is a 200 amp alternator actually so much more efficient that it can create so much more power without additional heat? Or is a 200 amp alternators continuous power output level actually closer to a smaller alternator. I believe they have the same cooling fans?

And if you don’t mind, in your quote you said before you moved to external regulation, but is that a typo, did you mean external rectification?

[a64pilot]

In case I’m not clear, what I am wondering is that there most likely is a point of diminishing returns, that a 200 amp alternator may not deliver twice the power of a 100 amp continuously, like it would seem at face value. I think maybe that there is a size that is a Best Buy for a cruiser on a budget, and above that you start paying more for less and less increase in output.
I presume there is a best value if you will alternator, that sort of like computers once you get close to the top, you pay increasing more for decreasingly less.
However I can’t find anyone that actually knows what is on average the safe output level of different rated alternators, I suspicion it’s not a flat number, that you can’t say that a 100 is good for 90% or 90 amps and a 200 is good for 90% or 180?

[Rotten Ricky]

Originally Posted by ggray

Yes, blower aimed at alternator.

Larger pulleys are always better, if you can physically fit them in, but if they were simply kept in the same ratio, you would get less slippage and dust but not improve the alt output or cooling. As others have said, it is the actual output and not the highest capability of the alternator, that is the determining factor regarding belt drive capability. Of course, a higher rated alt will have an easier life and liver longer than a smaller alt that is pushed hard. Before serpentine belts came along, having a dual-belt drive was the only other choice, and many people still opt for that drive. Dual groove alt pulleys are commonly available and fairly inexpensive, but it still requires dealing with the crankshaft and water-pump pulleys - and that can be complicated because of the oil seals etc.

The alternator output is the result of interaction between battery, regulator and alternator. You could have a massive alternator being spun, but unless the regulator measures the battery condition and tells the alt to produce more amps by greater excitation of the alt, you would have little output and little heat being generated, so it's all happy. But if the regulator excites the alternator cos it wants more amps for the battery, and if the alt tries to do that at insufficient speeds, it could overheat because it does not have enough air being pulled through to keep it cool. To some extent, even the custom marine alts, designed to produce more at lower RPMs, are affected by this, but for an alt that is based on an automotive design, many of which are rated at more than 10,000 RPM, it can be a killer.

My boats diesel when doing 2,000 RPM will spin my alternator at about 3500 RPM, which is pretty low. Your car's motor when doing 3,000 RPM will be spinning the alt at, say, 9,000 RPM and in cooler conditions and doing a much easier job of topping up your battery (usually a short term job) and running the engine, lights etc. Your car alt can easily handle this. But your car crank pulley is HUGE! compared to the crank pulley on your diesel engine.

So if I increase the crankshaft pulley on my boat from 4" to 6" (its maximum before it hits the castings), it will make my alt spin at about 50% faster, so the alt would travel at about 5,500 RPM - a vast improvement, with more output and better cooling. Note that the water pump pulley should also be increased in size to keep its rotation at about the same speed as before.

Compared to a car battery, our deep cycle batteries often require large currents to re-charge over a much longer time. The auto-based alt can do this but it needs time and cooling to do it. Auto-based alts if used in this manner are de-rated at least 40% because of the much higher demand made of them.

The Delco CS-144 alt. I have installed is de-rated from 140 amps to about 100 amps. As I don't expect to have to pump more than about 75 amps for a couple of hours at a time, I think it should do a great job. Incidentally, the CS-144 is slightly physically larger, but uses the same 2" main mounting bracket (foot) as many other alts, but one may have to use a slightly different tensioning bracket. Of great importance, it also has a better fan and larger air galleries for cooling. Luckily, I had the room to be able to mount it slightly further away from the engine to decrease the considerable heat radiating off the engine itself. Some people slip a kind of shield between the two. Air flow through the alt will also improve when not restricted by being tucked in close to the engine.

While you may have a fan pointed at the alternator, be aware that the cooling air enters at the rear where the diodes are - cooling is critical to them! - and exits through the fan in front. But I was referring mainly to having the entire engine compartment well-ventilated with a good cross-flow of cool air so that the entire compartment and its equipment can run in cooler temps. They will thank you! If you stick a thermometer in the compartment you will be shocked at how hot it can get without good cooling!

Cheers, RR.

[hellosailor]

Technically the answer is not a serpentine belt (which is tensioned both "on" and "out") but simply a rubbed belt--which is flat and wide, and that's what is used for serpentine belts.

There are also a dozen different profiles for V belts, and these days most of the kids in the auto supply stores don't have any idea how critical it is to match the correct profile.

A custom pulley is a simple matter of finding a machine shop with a lathe. Been there, done that, doubled the alternator output by having a better alternator and a properly sized pulley installed.

Chrysler and other auto makers used to use double v-belts for police/taxi use for heavy loads, but those ALWAYS required belts purchased literally in matched pairs, and they still ate the belts because one always take more load than the other--and fails first.

There can be a huge difference, if you look at alternator specs, in terms of how much they put out at low speed, high speed, continuous speed. Some have two fans, one at each end of the spindle. Some only have one. Guess which run cooler? And if the alternator has been painted, at all? That helps make it overheat. Pretty, but hotter.

I've often wondered if you could get better heat transfer out of any alternator by taking it to a machine shop and having the flute the exterior, so it simply had twice the surface area for heat transfer. (Fluted with care, and all the metal dust cleaned out afterwards.)

There's also something to be said about mounting dual alternators, if you have room for them. That cuts the side load on the engine bearings in half, which may extend engine bearing and water pump life significantly as well. More than just the belt takes the load of a big alternator.

[Rotten Ricky]

[QUOTE=Maine Sail;2665985]Seeing as I am the only one who likely fits that description I don't know why you assume I am "pushing small frame alt for all they are worth" or why you assume I am running a 130A alt? I am running a fully custom CS130D frame with custom 160A stator & rotor combo externally rectified.

Thanks for your great input. But I am really surprised.

Before choosing the Delco CS-144 model to upgrade my boat's generating ability, I was told - repeatedly and in every case - online and individually, that the CS-144 was superior to the CS130D that you choose. It was cheaper to buy, cheaper for parts that where very common, easy to overhaul and maintain and so reliable as to be used on ambulances and fire-trucks. They said, without exception, that the CS-130D had a bad reputation of overheating.

I was told that GM increased the frame size of the CS-144 to increase air flow through the larger air galleries. This was an important matter for companies who re-build the CS-144 into monsters that are rated at 300 amps and more.

And when I measure the "larger" CS-144, I find that it is only about 1/2" in each direction in size and could have been accommodated on my engine fairly easily. But to improve air flow etc, I chose to set everything further away from the engine, but would have done that anyway even if I had installed the 130D.

I would appreciate your input. Maybe I was miss-led. Thanks.

Cheers, RR.

[a64pilot]

Matched pairs of belts can and will wear equally if actually matched,
I learned to fly a helicopter that it’s main rotor was driven by eight matched V belts, the Hughes 269 / 300. Army designation TH-55.
I hear that belts are no longer sold as matched pairs, presumably because manufacturing tolerances are so close that all belts are matched now?

[Rotten Ricky]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Technically the answer is not a serpentine belt (which is tensioned both "on" and "out") but simply a rubbed belt--which is flat and wide, and that's what is used for serpentine belts.
A custom pulley is a simple matter of finding a machine shop with a lathe. Been there, done that, doubled the alternator output by having a better alternator and a properly sized pulley installed.
Chrysler and other auto makers used to use double v-belts for police/taxi use for heavy loads, but those ALWAYS required belts purchased literally in matched pairs, and they still ate the belts because one always take more load than the other--and fails first.
There's also something to be said about mounting dual alternators, if you have room for them. That cuts the side load on the engine bearings in half, which may extend engine bearing and water pump life significantly as well. More than just the belt takes the load of a big alternator.

A second alt will reduce the load of the crank only if mounted (somewhat) on the opposite side of the crank than the regular alt.

I read that matched pairs are not an issue any more because modern manufacturing of belts is more precise. The sharing of the load does not have to be exactly 50/50. And two belts doing the job of one will last a lot longer. And I doubt that anyone puts the hours on their boat engine that a police car does in a year!

It would cost a lot to have a new dual-V-groove pulley custom machined for the crank and water pump on my engine and the crank one will not be easy to install. The dual-groove alt pulleys are available and cheap.

Good thing I can use a lathe.

Cheers, R.


PS. Be aware that the cast iron flanges or tabs on engines can break off if too much force is asked of them when a larger alt is requiring greater tension. I have read of it several times on CF!