Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . . In this case a back up system in case the generator fails is wise. Cold food quickly loses its appeal and many food supplies are unusable. There are back up options such as a large alternator system on the main engine, or even a small camping stove etc etc.. . ..

From a systems architecture point of view, it makes sense to use one power source for everything and then concentrate resources on making that one power source as reliable as possible.


No electrical power, not only no cooking, but no refrigeration, no instruments, no autopilot, no washing clothes . . . . Therefore it is worth putting resources into making sure it doesn't happen.


In my case -- and I gave a great deal of thought to this before going to the Arctic, and even considered a Plan "C" portable generator in reserve just in case both generator AND school bus alternator failed. But I think generator plus school bus alternator, both with abundant spares on board (including an entire spare alternator) is pretty good. If on top of that you have solar too, then you're golden.


One thing I dislike about my gas system -- from a systems architecture point of view -- is that it is a whole system, even if it's pretty simple, supporting just one single use. It's a system which regularly requires repairs and maintenance and has to be operated with care to keep the risks in check. For the sake of one single appliance. It's not efficient. And it is a star of the repair list, where "star" is not a compliment. I spent half of last Saturday fixing it in fact

[GoneDiving]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Try a single hobb induction hot plate. Most cooking will be 300W-600W (approx 20-40 amps at 12vdc). 1-2 batteries and a decent sized solar panel will suffice as long as you're not doing a full Sunday dinner with braised brisket, etc.

Peter

We use these at home and they are great. We have two single element units and use them inside for regular cooking or outside for entertaining. Living in the tropics, they are fantastic as all the heat goes into the pan with out adding heat and humidity to the room space. They can also be moved or put away when not being used and/or bench space is a priority.

My wife has abandoned the, still fitted, normal benchtop gas stove and now cooks 80% of our meals on them.

I think we paid something like $40 each for them at Kmart.

I'd certainly recommend induction over gas and consider relocatable over fixed hot plates.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . Absolutely not. Insurance statistics are very clear. The most common source of fire is electricity. Overloaded circuits (undersized wire), loose connections, bad connector choices (the ubiquitous ANSI/SAE J563 aka cigarette lighter plugs), poor wire materials choices. How often do you hear about a propane installation leading to explosion? Even power boats at gas docks are more demonstrably more dangerous and electrical fires outstrip them. LPG (propane and butane) is the single most common cooking fuel on the planet. Adding thousands of watts of consumption to the most dangerous system on the boat (electricity) is problematic. The insurance industry statistics look backward at real-world data and haven’t caught up with induction yet. . .

Well, with respect, a boat is blown up at least every year just in the UK by a propane explosion, and not rarely people are killed. Propane on board is a definite risk -- of death. It's a risk like so many others which can be managed with good maintenance and good operation, but doing it right is a fair amount of trouble. The Lord Trenchard explosion is a really good lesson -- a really well-run British military training yacht where the procedures for gas safety went so far as to require dry pumping the bilge every day in order to get any possible leaked gas out. Blown to smithereens in Poole Harbour and a cadet lost a leg. There but for the grace of God go all of us . . .



And I disagree from a systems architecture point of view that adding another consumer to an existing electrical system adds ANY additional risk. If you are running other appliances of similar current draw the risk is absolutely the same. A badly installed or maintained electrical system is really dangerous -- like a badly installed or maintained gas system. The huge difference however is that you use the electrical system for 50 different things, so justifies cost and effort to make it safe, whereas the gas system is only good for one single thing. So the amount of risk you take per unit of utility on board is 50 times greater, than with electricity. It's much better, more efficient, and safer to have one single system which you can concentrate your attention and money on making really good and really safe.


And maintenance of an electrical system is actually simpler than maintenance of a gas system. No hoses to deteriorate, no solenoids to fail, no seals to leak. Just take care that contacts don't build up resistance (laser thermoeter checks), keep an eye on the wiring, install a really good shore power connector (SmartPlug -- shore power connections must cause 90% of electrical problems on board). My electrical system is really good (thank you, A.H. Moody & Sons) and is 90% original after 18 years. It has required a lot less attention over the years than the gas system, although, as I said, the electrical system supports 50 different functions on board, if not more.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One thing I dislike about my gas system -- from a systems architecture point of view -- is that it is a whole system, even if it's pretty simple, supporting just one single use. It's a system which regularly requires repairs and maintenance and has to be operated with care to keep the risks in check.

That has not been my experience. The propane/butane cooking system has been reliable and has required minimal maintenance on the boats I have owned . There are few components, so not much can go wrong.

The complexity and potential failure points is couple of orders of magnitude below that of a generator.

The main problem of the propane/butane system is obtaining the fuel. Once you start traveling between countries the multitude of standards combined with the difficulties of sourcing and transferring the fuel to the boat can become a nuisance.

Extending the time between propane/butane refills and maximising the ease of use of different standards (such as different sized bottles and regulators) is the key. A system that requires replacing or refilling the propane/butane system infrequently especially if this time scale can be extended to only every few years removes most of the hassle dealing with this system.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

That has not been my experience. The propane/butane cooking system has been reliable and has required minimal maintenance on the boats I have owned . There are few components, so not much can go wrong.

The complexity and potential failure points is couple of orders of magnitude below that of a generator.

The main problem of the propane/butane system is obtaining the fuel. Once you start traveling between countries the multitude of standards combined with the difficulties of sourcing and transferring the fuel to the boat can become a nuisance.

Extending the time between propane/butane refills and maximising the ease of use of different standards (such as different sized bottles and regulators) is the key. A system that requires replacing or refilling the propane/butane system infrequently especially if this time scale can be extended to only every few years removes most of the hassle dealing with this system.

It's simpler, but in my experience, troublesome. Maybe I'm a klutz with it.


On the positive side, I have learned how to deal with the difference in standards. It was a "bingo!" moment when I figured it out.


If you can't get a guerilla pour into your usual bottles (surprisingly easy in Sweden), just -- buy a local regulator and a local bottle and forget about it.


I used to stress about getting my Calor bottles filled, but now I have a set of Finnish/Estonian/Danish/Faroen bottles on board, with the appropriate regulator, and one or the other I'm able to get filled anywhere.



But I still deal every year with one or another failure -- a hose doesn't pass muster, a solenoid valve fails, one faff or another. It's simpler than a generator -- I agree. But still a faff I'd love to to be rid of.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GoneDiving

. . . My wife has abandoned the, still fitted, normal benchtop gas stove and now cooks 80% of our meals on them.. . .

That's a typical response Once you go black, you never go back. Or something like that. It's hard to describe the awesomeness of induction cooking to anyone who hasn't tried it.

[Belezar]

I will respond as a cook, not a boater. Gas is my preference. I hate induction heating for cooking. Gas is so much better from a chefs view. I never have smell. A microwave won’t be anything like baking. The only negative is the heat in the tropics, which is a positive in the colder climates. Grilling helps.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Belezar

I will respond as a cook, not a boater. Gas is my preference. I hate induction heating for cooking. Gas is so much better from a chefs view. I never have smell. A microwave won’t be anything like baking. The only negative is the heat in the tropics, which is a positive in the colder climates. Grilling helps.

Have you actually tried induction cooking? It doesn't sound like it. The control over temperature and power is on a completely different level, compared to gas.


I have gas in most of my land homes -- it's good there when the stove is big enough to have a big range of heat. But our boat gas stoves are piddly in terms of power, and therefore -- in range of heat. Induction is incomparably better.



Unlike gas or any other cooking method -- you have separate control of wattage, and temperature.

[Belezar]

I have done induction cooking, but only on land. It sucks the wazoo imho. But I live to eat, not eat to live.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you can't get a guerilla pour into your usual bottles (surprisingly easy in Sweden), just -- buy a local regulator and a local bottle and forget about it.

Propane/Butane supply problems are certainly not insurmountable. I doubt in most places if you could ever be left stranded without access to this option, but obtaining the fuel can be hassle. This is due to the different standards and problems transporting the fuel. By comparison, diesel is much the same standard worldwide and is more easily available close to the water.

Solar is even better. The sun is available worldwide and governments have not found a way to introduce different standards or even to tax the output .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Propane/Butane supply problems are certainly not insurmountable. I doubt in most places if you could ever be left stranded without access to this option, but obtaining the fuel can be hassle. This is due to the different standards and problems transporting the fuel. By comparison, diesel is much the same standard worldwide and is more easily available close to the water.. . .

Again, far be it for me, to tout LPG, which I generally hate.


But there is no problem with bottle standards. All you have to do to overcome that is convert your system to whatever local standard there is. This conversion is quite trivial -- a regulator (20 euros?), some hose.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Have you actually tried induction cooking? It doesn't sound like it. The control over temperature and power is on a completely different level, compared to gas.


I have gas in most of my land homes -- it's good there when the stove is big enough to have a big range of heat. But our boat gas stoves are piddly in terms of power, and therefore -- in range of heat. Induction is incomparably better.



Unlike gas or any other cooking method -- you have separate control of wattage, and temperature.

I’ve been using an induction cooktop on yachts for the past 25 years

Excellent piece of equipment , particularly for yachts in that it produces little waste heat and keeps he galley cool

The cooktop is above with an electric micro wave convection oven below

One detail to consider

The induction cooktop unit electronic can’t tolerate high heat

When The oven is under the cooktop , heat rises from the oven and overheats the induction cooktop electronics

Forced air ventilation between oven and cooktop is. Wise addition

The cooktop is a Bosch

I think each element is 1000 watt

[Fortytwo]

What would you people recommend for a single burner portable (plug in) 1000w induction unit? Hopefully something that can tolerate an ocean environment...

[wingssail]

Lots of pro's and cons for induction cooking, gas cooking (propane or LPG), generators, Hondas, and all sorts of variations.

I see everyone's point, and the choice is up to you, and what makes sense to you.

In my case, I want simple and reliable, repairable and redundant. And most of all I want to avoid carrying anything which adds complexity and weight.

I have no qualms about propane, just a decent respect for it.

So...No genset to maintain, no Honda cluttering up the cockpit, no huge solar array, (no big heavy arch over the stern), no lithium batteries (Cost mostly, otherwise I think I might consider them) no HOB that has to be stored when not in use.

We have a force10 three burner propane stove with oven (on gimbles) and two 9 gallon propane tanks, and plenty of spare parts. We also heat water with a propane instant water heater and run the BBQ on the same low pressure line (see dockhead, not just one appliance on the system, OK?). We've lived on this boat with this set-up for 34 years! Never been without ability to cook, and only rarely without pressure hot water available. Never had a propane explosion or gas leaking in the cabin or propane locker. Never had a problem getting our tanks filled although once or twice I had to decant it myself. We rarely motor and we get by fine with 450AH house batteries and 270 watts of solar. We top the batteries daily with the main engine. (we have spares for that charging system too). In 6500 hours in 25 years, on this engine (and 55000 miles) it's all worked flawlessly(knock on wood).

Our solution is light and simple ands reliable, and, I think, safe.

So, for the simple, light, and fast sailboat, and sailors who want to keep it that way, there are other options than electric cooking.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Fortytwo

What would you people recommend for a single burner portable (plug in) 1000w induction unit? Hopefully something that can tolerate an ocean environment...

I purchase this one via Amazon a few months ago - I think it was around $50 or $60. I use it as part of my outdoor kitchen which is covered but still exposed. My house kitchen is being remodeled so I purchased this for for backup and I use it several times a week. Works fine. I know it says 1800w but that is way too hot. High is 1200w. Most cooking is 600-800, with slow sinner of rice at 300w

No complaints this far. I also bought one at Costco a couple years ago that came with an induction ready pot for about $70. I have not used it much but also works fine.