Induction vs Gas Cooking

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Propane/Butane supply problems are certainly not insurmountable. I doubt in most places if you could ever be left stranded without access to this option, but obtaining the fuel can be hassle. This is due to the different standards and problems transporting the fuel. By comparison, diesel is much the same standard worldwide and is more easily available close to the water.

Solar is even better. The sun is available worldwide and governments have not found a way to introduce different standards or even to tax the output .

Our experience is different. During our circumnavigation, over 18 years and 35 countries, We rarely had an issue getting our propane bottles refilled. When we visited a country which ONLY would exchange a bottle, not refill it, we bought the local bottle and decanted the gas into our bottles. We have a few adaptors.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My gas system has been out of commission since last summer, and I only just now got around to fixing it.


Just for fun -- to give myself pleasure of using a newly restored system -- I cooked a meal on it, rather than on the NuWave induction hob I have been using in the meantime.


Wow, I forgot what it's like to cook with gas!! It's slow, hard to control, and STINKS. I have to run the exhaust hood fan to get the combustion products out of the boat. Just to think I was cruising for decades with only gas cooking, and without even an exhaust hood.


I had just totally forgotten how gas sucks, compared to induction! There will be no gas on my next boat!

I could never go back to gas (except BBQ on stern) because of how clean and controlled the Induction heat is in the tropics. Never thought of the smell factor, glad I have no more gas lines inside. Thanks for the reminder

[a64pilot]

Heat from cooking is never an issue for us in the tropics, reason is our boat is very well ventilated and the galley is right beside of the companionway, so any heat goes out the companionway pretty much instantly.
During the heat of Summer we are in a marina hiding from he who shall not be named and the AC deals with the heat, but we open a hatch right over the stove and the window over the strove and the companionway hatch sometimes to vent the cooking smells, not gas smells, but cooking can quickly fill the boat with cooking odors.
I carry four 10 lb bottles, each lasts a month so every three months I need to find gas, so I don’t need to very often.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Our experience is different. During our circumnavigation, over 18 years and 35 countries, We rarely had an issue getting our propane bottles refilled. When we visited a country which ONLY would exchange a bottle, not refill it, we bought the local bottle and decanted the gas into our bottles. We have a few adaptors.

I have been cruising for a similar length of time and my perspective is a little different. If you are long distance crusing bottles from different countries cannot usually be exchanged. Even within a country from island to island different supply companies can prevent exchanges. Refills of your own bottle are no longer common due to H&S regulations.

Buying a local propane/butane bottle and decanting this into your own bottle is a good solution to the incompatibility problems associated with the diverse standards.

It is a hassle, and is technically illegal, but I think can be done safely. You still need buy a suitable bottle, have the relevant adaptors and return the local bottle when the decanting process is finished. Taxies and buses often refuse to transport any propane/butane bottles which complicates the process as the bottles are too heavy to carry long dustances.

These problems can be overcome, but there is no comparison to the ease of using using induction cooking, and sunlight to replenish the fuel supply without ever stepping ashore.

[billgewater]

In the lotus land of Queensland, having gas on board is a nightmare. The local state requirements are near impossible to meet. Insurance conditions can also be very difficult to meet (they vary a lot).
The technology of induction cookers is clearly getting better and the advent of cheaper lithium batteries really does make it worthwhile considering the use of induction cookers.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

From a systems architecture point of view, it makes sense to use one power source for everything and then concentrate resources on making that one power source as reliable as possible.

That depends on reliability, maintainability, and failure modes and effects. Losing cooking has huge effects. It's much harder to make LPG fail than the complex implementation of induction. I laid that out above and won't torture you with it again.

I'll put my systems architecture expertise (including FMEA) up against anyone.

I can't imagine why your LPG system is a maintenance burden. There are only so many elements and they are simple. You're missing something.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, with respect, a boat is blown up at least every year just in the UK by a propane explosion, and not rarely people are killed.

My numbers are based on US insurance statistics. I can't speak to UK numbers but I'd be very surprised if they are significantly different. Double the voltage means half the current which means one-fourth the heat at bad connections so there may be an element there. Regardless, single events are not statistically significant. How many boat fires in the UK attributed to electric failures? We have boats burn to the waterline with loss of life. That is statistically significant. I watched one such which is personal and sobering but not statistically significant.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And maintenance of an electrical system is actually simpler than maintenance of a gas system. No hoses to deteriorate, no solenoids to fail, no seals to leak. Just take care that contacts don't build up resistance (laser thermoeter checks), keep an eye on the wiring, install a really good shore power connector (SmartPlug -- shore power connections must cause 90% of electrical problems on board).

How often do you check connections? How often do you tighten them? Lets not forget chafe on insulation, cold hardening of wire strands due to vibration, thermal cycling. Let's also remember you can SMELL a gas leak. You can't smell a hot connection until it is too late and damage if not fire as occurred.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Solar is even better. The sun is available worldwide and governments have not found a way to introduce different standards or even to tax the output .

Never underestimate the creativity of tax men. As awareness that solar is neither green nor renewable grows we can expect to see more taxing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

That depends on reliability, maintainability, and failure modes and effects. Losing cooking has huge effects. It's much harder to make LPG fail than the complex implementation of induction. I laid that out above and won't torture you with it again.

I'll put my systems architecture expertise (including FMEA) up against anyone.

Of course -- I have no particular systems architecture expertise, nothing compared to yours, and this is just my humble amateur opinion -- we're just chewing the fat, ok?


But I still don't see it. Why is induction a "complex implementation"? The device itself costs $69 or something. I have two of them, so there is redundancy. Electrical power used for 50 different purposes is very robustly implemented -- it is mission-critical. If electrical power goes down then cooking is the least of my problems. So I won't need to cook if there is no electrical power. So logically -- we assume there is electrical power. The device is reliable, and has a backup, and if both fail a new one can be bought anywhere for a trivial price. This is about as robust as it gets, no?



I get it that gas is simpler and easier to make reliable, but it's still a whole extra system. And it's not THAT simple -- because of the safety issues.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . I can't imagine why your LPG system is a maintenance burden. There are only so many elements and they are simple. You're missing something.

Maybe I'm a klutz with it. But something goes wrong with it every year. Yes, it's easy to fix. It would be better, if I had better spares for it -- need to do that. The most common problem is bad solenoid valve. Different things go wrong with it and I replace it no less often than every other year, sometimes every year. Either they just fail. Or for example the last one went bad in a full gale in the North Sea with green water on deck for 24 hours. Sea water got into my gas locker and the drain got clogged with something. Solenoid got immersed in sea water. It's theoretically waterproof, but not against 24 hours of sea water immersion. Then I had to redo the wiring a couple of times. O rings need replacing. Hoses crack. Trouble with the gas alarm -- sensor got wet. I won't use the gas without the alarm working. Then a hose got kinked (in another storm) when the gimballed stove swung into it. Regulators fail every few years. My last regulator went bad after a splash of sea water. Etc. etc. etc. -- that kind of stuff. None of it is a big deal, but there always seems to be something.


I need better spares on board for the gas system -- I think while I'm thinking about it I will order another solenoid, another alarm sensor, and a set of hoses and fittings. And a spare regulator. Yeah, I'm going to do that right now while I'm thinking about it. Just like with any other failure of anything on board -- if you have the spare on board (and IF you know where it is stored ), it might be a trivial issue and little trouble, whereas if you are out cruising and don't have the part, the same failure can be a major PITA.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . My numbers are based on US insurance statistics. I can't speak to UK numbers but I'd be very surprised if they are significantly different. Double the voltage means half the current which means one-fourth the heat at bad connections so there may be an element there. Regardless, single events are not statistically significant. How many boat fires in the UK attributed to electric failures? We have boats burn to the waterline with loss of life. That is statistically significant. I watched one such which is personal and sobering but not statistically significant.

As I recall, US insurance statistics don't break out LPG accidents from other fires and explosions. Not true? If you have specific LPG statistics, I would love to see them.


For me, the statistics are not that important. It's quite enough for me that there are disasters on a regular basis -- every year around here. Is that 0.5%? Or 2% or 1.2%? I don't care -- it happens, not rarely, and needs to be guarded against. I once (in the course of another argument about it on here) did a down and dirty and unscientific Google-based survey of boating related deaths as reported in UK media, and it seemed to me that LPG explosions caused the third most deaths after MOB and CO asphyxiation. More than fires. That's all I need to know; precision is not required.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

How often do you check connections? How often do you tighten them? Lets not forget chafe on insulation, cold hardening of wire strands due to vibration, thermal cycling. Let's also remember you can SMELL a gas leak. You can't smell a hot connection until it is too late and damage if not fire as occurred. . .

I shoot my connections with an infrared thermometer on a regular basis, and check tightness annually or more often if I'm working on the system. I like to go through the main panel whenever I have it open. Wiring is all in conduits and is practically immune from chafe.



Electrical installations vary enormously in quality and I'm lucky that mine is really good and is holding up well at 18 years of age. As you say, 230v is a huge advantage (4x less heat), and I also am a big believer in the UK ring main architecture. I am really careful with the ring main because I run electric heating almost year round, off fan heaters plugged into my sockets. Those I check just about daily with the infrared thermometer. What is not as good as my socket system and other parts of the original system is the stuff I've done myself. I'm not such a brilliant electrician. I've learned a lot the last few years and now start to think about redoing some things which I installed years ago which I now realize were not done optimally.


The only actual problem I've had with the electrical system -- really, I've had ZERO electrical system problems on this boat over more than 10 years, with only one exception -- is the shore power connection. I finally got rid of that diabolical Marinco crap and installed a SmartPlug, so I hope that's the end of it. Beautiful piece of kit.



But concerning induction -- in my situation, where I run electric heat just about every day, using an induction hob adds exactly zero to the danger of electrical fire. It's a rounding error compared to all the other electrical consumers I have on board (washer/dryer, espresso machine, power tools, drone charger, multitude of computers, toaster, blender, electric kettle, vacuum cleaner, etc. etc. etc.).


Isn't that the correct systems architecture approach to evaluating the cost and risk?


An extra system bringing its own maintenance, failures, and risks versus using a system you already have, and whose own maintenance, failures and risks you are not adding to. You care about the incremental maintenance, failures and risk and not anything else. And here electrical power clearly wins, because that's zero.


Put another way -- whether or not you cook with it, the electrical system maintenance, failures and risk doesn't change. But eliminating gas reduces those risks, whatever they are, whether they are big or small. So it is a fallacy to compare the maintenance, failures and risk of an electrical system versus those of a gas system. Even if electrical systems were 10x more troublesome and 10x more risky, than gas systems (and I don't think that's true), you would still win by eliminating the gas system.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why is induction a "complex implementation"?

Compared to gas it is more complex. You have multiple energy sources: generator, altnerator(s), solar, shore power feeding batteries. There is some complexity in switching between shore, inverter, and generator. There is a lot of high current connectivity (at 24VDC I recall in your case). There are lots of connections, some of which are connectors (domestic power leads). That is more complex with more things to go wrong than a tank, a solenoid, and two lengths of hose to the cooker which is itself dead simple.

Go back and read my earlier post about what can go wrong with induction cooking and consider how you'd fix that at sea. Then look at what can go wrong with LPG cooking and what you can do to fix those at sea.

Now consider failure cascades. What happens when one thing goes wrong and then something else? If that hasn't happened to you then you are indeed fortunate.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If electrical power goes down then cooking is the least of my problems.

Really? What will you do with all that raw chicken? Fish bait for sushi? How will you keep people fed so they can function? How long will they go hungry? Or will you just eat from cold tinned goods?

What about when the weather is sporty? Have you gimballed your hobs? If you are putting hobs on top of the LPG cooker have you considered the rise in center of gravity and increased the weight in the bottom of the cooker?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This is about as robust as it gets, no?

I would say no. If you can fix most failures with a toothbrush, a paper clip, a match, and a small part in stock that is more robust.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The most common problem is bad solenoid valve. Different things go wrong with it and I replace it no less often than every other year, sometimes every year. Either they just fail. Or for example the last one went bad in a full gale in the North Sea with green water on deck for 24 hours. Sea water got into my gas locker and the drain got clogged with something. Solenoid got immersed in sea water. It's theoretically waterproof, but not against 24 hours of sea water immersion. Then I had to redo the wiring a couple of times. O rings need replacing. Hoses crack. Trouble with the gas alarm -- sensor got wet. I won't use the gas without the alarm working. Then a hose got kinked (in another storm) when the gimballed stove swung into it. Regulators fail every few years. My last regulator went bad after a splash of sea water. Etc. etc. etc. -- that kind of stuff. None of it is a big deal, but there always seems to be something.

The propane locker lid should not be leaking. Have you checked the seal? Yes, solenoids are a common failure mode. Get a male to male nipple of proper size and keep it attached to the inside of the propane locker lid so you can jump around the solenoid. That means more trips to open and close the tank valve after a solenoid failure but you can cook. If you've had to redo the wiring multiple times you have either a process or materials problem.

The gas alarm is an entirely different problem. They should be looked at as consumable items. The sensor in the alarm has a limited life and the clock starts running at the time of manufacture so if you buy a "new" one that's been sitting on the shelf at a chandlery for a while it's life will be short. There should be a date on the device. I've never seen a hose crack. Why are they cracking? Is this sea water in the locker again? Do you leave the cooker swinging when you aren't cooking? Regulator failures are not common. I'd start by changing brands and level of quality.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I need better spares on board for the gas system -- I think while I'm thinking about it I will order another solenoid, another alarm sensor, and a set of hoses and fittings. And a spare regulator. Yeah, I'm going to do that right now while I'm thinking about it.

Good. Please add the male-to-male nipple adapter as well. It's cheap until you need it when it is priceless.

Do you carry a spare glass top for your induction hobs?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As I recall, US insurance statistics don't break out LPG accidents from other fires and explosions. Not true? If you have specific LPG statistics, I would love to see them.

I am remembering an article in BoatUS Magazine that went over the numbers. Note that BoatUS is owned by Berkshire Hathaway who also own a number of insurance companies including GEICO. I'll try to Google that up.

I agree that the numbers themselves aren't important. What is important is that electrical failure results in more fires than LPG by a wide margin. I think your quick Google is suspect. Newspapers love explosions - they sell advertising. A fire, regardless of consequences, is not nearly as interesting.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The only actual problem I've had with the electrical system -- really, I've had ZERO electrical system problems on this boat over more than 10 years, with only one exception -- is the shore power connection. I finally got rid of that diabolical Marinco crap and installed a SmartPlug, so I hope that's the end of it. Beautiful piece of kit.

I think we've discussed this before. I cut my connector off completely and shifted to color-coded ring terminals. If it's good enough for warships and commercial shipping it's good enough for me.

[Auspicious]

I followed through on polling stove v. oven. Results are still coming in. I don't think averages and medians are as helpful as the raw data. Note that the two communities I polled are self selecting are made up of people who care about cooking, even if many of them don't cook very well (we get a lot of questions).

stove/oven

HO:
40/60

r/cooking
60/40
50/50
80/20
80/20
40/60
85/15
33/67
95/05

The numbers above don't include me. I'd put my use of stove v. oven at sea close to 50/50.

My conclusion so far is that I'm not an outlier and outfitting a boat without a decent oven is short sighted.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I followed through on polling stove v. oven. Results are still coming in. I don't think averages and medians are as helpful as the raw data. Note that the two communities I polled are self selecting are made up of people who care about cooking, even if many of them don't cook very well (we get a lot of questions).

stove/oven

HO:
40/60

r/cooking
60/40
50/50
80/20
80/20
40/60
85/15
33/67
95/05

The numbers above don't include me. I'd put my use of stove v. oven at sea close to 50/50.

My conclusion so far is that I'm not an outlier and outfitting a boat without a decent oven is short sighted.

Thanks - I'm surprised. I cook a lot and have for 40+ years. I wonder if oven use is climate influenced? When I moved to Florida from San Francisco, oven became almost irrelevant. With this Virus thing going on, I've started making bread again so that uses an oven, but other than that, I would think most ovens on boats would be storage, at least in warmer climates. Your numbers show otherwise. Thanks

For what it's worth, I will be replacing my Dickenson gas BBQ with a small (17") Blackstone propane griddle. Much more versatile, and it's much easier to keep clean.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Compared to gas it is more complex. You have multiple energy sources: generator, altnerator(s), solar, shore power feeding batteries. There is some complexity in switching between shore, inverter, and generator. There is a lot of high current connectivity (at 24VDC I recall in your case). There are lots of connections, some of which are connectors (domestic power leads). That is more complex with more things to go wrong than a tank, a solenoid, and two lengths of hose to the cooker which is itself dead simple.

Sure, but I think you missed the point. The question is not EITHER electricity OR gas. You have electricity anyway. The question is Electricity PLUS gas, or just electricity. Clearly the first thing is simpler, safer, and has less things to go wrong with it. You have to look at it from a systems point of view, no?

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Go back and read my earlier post about what can go wrong with induction cooking and consider how you'd fix that at sea. Then look at what can go wrong with LPG cooking and what you can do to fix those at sea.

I think the induction hobs are basically disposable. Depending on the risk of failure I would keep more of them on board. I would never try to repair one -- no point. But they are extremely reliable in any case. I have two on board, and have never had a failure. If I were really worried about it, I would have three. Or four. They are very compact and easy to store.


From a systems point of view, do you prefer easy to repair, or cheap and easy to replace? In many cases, I like cheap and easy to replace, especially when the device besides that is very reliable. This reminds me of my school bus alternator, compared to a generator. Such a primitive, simple device -- can be fixed in any third world auto elec shop with a hammer and screwdriver. And cheap and compact enough that it's a snap to just have a complete spare on board -- just swap it out in 15 minutes. Same thing with an induction hob -- if it craps out, just toss it and drag out the spare. 2 minutes.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Now consider failure cascades. What happens when one thing goes wrong and then something else? If that hasn't happened to you then you are indeed fortunate.

Of course. It's every sailor's nightmare. But what does it have to do with any of this?

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . Really? What will you do with all that raw chicken? Fish bait for sushi? How will you keep people fed so they can function? How long will they go hungry? Or will you just eat from cold tinned goods?

I'm a vegetarian, so these are not directly my problems. But in any case, total electrical failure is a Mayday event on many boats now, or nearly so. I need electrical power for navigation, autopilot, water supply, refrigeration, even the diesel heating won't work without power. If I have a total electrical failure, God forbid, I'll be eating emergency rations or tinned goods or whatever; cooking will not be even on the first page of the list of things to worry about.



But the good news is that because so many different systems depend on electrical power, it is really worthwhile making the electrical system as failure-resistant as possible, so it is extremely robust. I have a school bus alternator capable of producing 2.5kW. I have a complete spare alternator in spares, spare belts, spare diodes and brushes -- everything. The alternator produces AC power via a Victron inverter. And I have a spare (smaller but capable of running most gear) inverter on board. And a spare battery charger. So if the main engine runs, there is no way I don't have power. Besides that, I have a Kohler low speed heavy duty continuous duty rated generator, 6.5kW, extremely reliable, with full inventory of spares on board including circuit board, starter, fresh and sea water pumps, belts, hoses, injector pipes, injectors, exhaust elbow, etc etc etc. I have miles of wire, bags of terminals and switches, and bags of electrical tools on board. If any part of the electrical system failed, I could wire around it.



So if the boat hasn't sunk or burned to the waterline (God forbid), I'll have electrical power, one way or another, and the effort and expense it took to make it like that is spread over 50 different functions. The incremental cost to have this extremely reliable power source for cooking is zero -- I've already got it.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . What about when the weather is sporty? Have you gimballed your hobs? If you are putting hobs on top of the LPG cooker have you considered the rise in center of gravity and increased the weight in the bottom of the cooker?

I generally cook with gas at sea unless I'm motoring in calm weather. But it works fine to put the induction hob on top of the gas cooker. You just have to put something heavy in the bottom of the oven to make up for the slight rise in CG.


Obviously it would be better to have an actual gimballed induction hob. Next boat will have this.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . .. .The propane locker lid should not be leaking. Have you checked the seal?

My gas locker is let into the deck on the port quarter, flush with the deck. The lid has a seal but it's not enough to deal with green water. It's a design flaw, but you have to have sympathy for the designer since it's really hard to find a decent place for a gas locker, a place which is out of the way of green water yet easily drains overboard above the waterline.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . .Yes, solenoids are a common failure mode. Get a male to male nipple of proper size and keep it attached to the inside of the propane locker lid so you can jump around the solenoid. That means more trips to open and close the tank valve after a solenoid failure but you can cook.

I have a box of fittings and am able to plumb around the solenoid, and I do, but it is a real PITA to cook safely without a solenoid, and big risk of someone forgetting to switch the tank off. My gas was connected like that until last weekend but I simply don't use it when there's not solenoid, except in dire need.


Good news is I think I found the cause of some of my solenoid failures. Here I've been buying 24v solenoids all these years and last weekend I happened to put a voltmeter on the circuit and discovered 13.6v on it So no wonder they don't last long. I'll order a proper 12v one today.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . If you've had to redo the wiring multiple times you have either a process or materials problem.

Well, it's a typical boat problem. Seawater got into the original wire -- the crimp connector wasn't quite waterproof. Wicked up and corroded the wire even though it was tinned. So I had to pull it out and splice in a new one. Then had to rewire for a new connector, when I changed solenoid type. Etc. etc. Typical stuff. It's another system with its own piping, valves, electrics, etc., and so it's a faff like every other system on board.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The gas alarm is an entirely different problem. They should be looked at as consumable items. The sensor in the alarm has a limited life and the clock starts running at the time of manufacture so if you buy a "new" one that's been sitting on the shelf at a chandlery for a while it's life will be short. There should be a date on the device.

Case on point. What a faff on top of everything else to have to think about date limited and highly vulnerable to water sensors which have to be changed all the time. Bleh! Yet another big downside of gas. Damn sensors are costly as well.



Don't need this whole system with electric cooking! None of this stuff! Not the box of gas fittings, not the roll of gas tape, not the leak tester, not the spare sensor, not the spare hose, not the alternate regulator and fittings for the different bottle type, not the box of adapters for guerilla bottle fills, not the gas locker, not the bottles, not the other type bottle which is hard to store because you can't bring it into the hull volume, none of it! Just plug it in!

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I've never seen a hose crack. Why are they cracking? Is this sea water in the locker again? Do you leave the cooker swinging when you aren't cooking? Regulator failures are not common. I'd start by changing brands and level of quality.

Hoses deterioriate. Ozone? I check them by flexing them. When you see a small crack is time to change them. I get 2 or 3 years out of them. Regulators are short life devices according to the makers. Mine usually die from sea water splashes. Some just die. I will start keeping spares. I don't know why you think regulator failures are rare -- in a life time of cruising with gas on board, I've never gotten more than 3 or 4 years out of a gas regulator. They are consumables, on top of all the other consumables in the gas system. Bleh!

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I am remembering an article in BoatUS Magazine that went over the numbers. Note that BoatUS is owned by Berkshire Hathaway who also own a number of insurance companies including GEICO. I'll try to Google that up.

I agree that the numbers themselves aren't important. What is important is that electrical failure results in more fires than LPG by a wide margin.

Why is this more important? You still don't get my point. The question is not EITHER electrical fire risk OR gas explosion risk. The question is electrical fire risk PLUS gas explosion risk, or just the electrical fire risk WITHOUT any gas explosion risk. So whether or not "electrical failure results in more fires than LPG by a wide margin" is totally irrelevant -- you don't eliminate or reduce the risk of electrical fire, by having a gas system on board. You just add a new risk to the risks you already have. And a serious risk which demonstrably kills and maims people every year. By cooking with electricity, you completely eliminate this risk without adding any new risks.


Whether or not you care, is a different question. "Acceptable risks" according to human nature is a really subjective question and is rarely based on any really data-based analysis. There were years of my life when I thought riding motorcycles at 100+ MPH was an acceptable risk (right up until my third crash). I have been using gas on boats for decades, but I've never been really comfortable with it and have never felt really safe, despite all the precautions, and it seems to me that one can feel really safe with gas on board only through ignorance. But I admit that this is really subjective. Electric cooking? There is zero risk from cooking with it, which I don't already take every day, even heating with electricity. So from a risk standpoint, for me, it's a no-brainer. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . I think we've discussed this before. I cut my connector off completely and shifted to color-coded ring terminals. If it's good enough for warships and commercial shipping it's good enough for me.

I remember that -- it's a fantastic solution Kind of cutting the Gordian knot and just eliminating the most problematic electrical connection on board . I would do it like that myself, except I wouldn't be able to deal with the cord. I can't leave it on deck -- remember where I sail and how much green water I have. I need to get the cord off the deck when I'm at sea.



If I were doing a new build, I would have a hard-wired shore power cord like yours, with the connection inside a locker out of the way of seawater and big enough to store the cord. That would be the primo solution

[Pelagic]

Like DH, I constantly check wiring as part of regular maintenance

A bad/loose electrical connection does not always mean a fire....the item stops working, a breaker opens, you see evidence that this connection has been running hot.

A bad gas/propane connection, simply put, will leak and will cause an explosion if in a confined space The sac.

I think climate does change your cooking habits.
In the tropics we never used the oven.
When hot, we prefer to eat lighter meals rather than heavy roasts done in an oven.
Salads/ chilled soups and gazpachios, sushi tend to be our favourites.

If craviguaqng savory, using the Turbo Roast or grilling/smoking on the BBQ is done outside on the aft deck tables and ovw heat up the interior.

So much happier with induction as the clean, cool to touch, precise control and far safer to use, compared to gas, as a default heating

Cooking Out back,
The BBQ,.
backup portabàle induction for boiling crabs etc and the turbo roast outside is where we prefer to coo

[a64pilot]

I don’t get it, in six years I have had two failures Propane wise, the Solenoid went out about a week ago for the first time. Ten minutes to replace. When I bought the boat the hose, solenoid, regulator and pressure gauge were likely original to the boat so I replaced them all. I believe the hose, regulator and pressure gauge came as one piece already assembled.
The other failure was last year, the seal on one of the tanks valves went bad and wouldn’t allow a fill without leaking propane so they wouldn’t fill it, I had other tanks of course but did have the valve replaced as aluminum Marine propane tanks are expensive.
The lid on my propane locker is not sealed, never was, water off the deck drains into it and then overboard through the drain. The drain has never clogged yet, but if it does it’s going to be real easy to clean out as it’s about a 1 foot hose.
So two very easy to fix failures in six years, with three of them or so living aboard full time is next to nothing. I don’t understand why you have had failures, it is such a simple system, there just isn’t much to fail.
We never really use the gimbal the stove stays locked down, if we are really rolling at sea, she isn’t cooking, and I believe that to be unsafe anyway whether electric or gas, lots of hot stuff to burn you, so we eat sandwiches etc until the wx dies down, usually we aren’t that hungry in bad weather anyway.

I can assume that possibly being vegetarian may have an effect on cooking methods, as again I assume that meat takes longer to cook than most vegetarian dishes?

But for us an oven is essential, any or most “real” cooking involves the oven.
I can see cooking electrically if you have the excess power, and people keep talking about batteries, so I have to assume they motor a lot, cause of course batteries are a storage medium, and generating the power to begin with is I think the real issue, unless you motor a lot, then storage becomes the issue.
But I see electric cooking by whatever means to be secondary to gas, because having enough electricity is not easy, especially when you throw an oven into the mix, and a microwave really isn’t an oven.
Now if your running a generator anyway, well then sure why not, be foolish to not use a resource that’s already there.

But I think to some extent that electric cooking is really a big boat thing, us little guys just don’t usually have the excess power available, limited in generation and storage.
A power boat often takes this to the extreme, the logical conclusion if you will. With electric cooking, water heating and refrigeration etc all being AC power.
Our RV’s interestingly to me all had propane cooking and even propane refrigeration so that my battery bank was just two batteries, lights and water pump was about all there was that was electric.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don’t get it, in six years I have had two failures Propane wise, the Solenoid went out about a week ago for the first time. Ten minutes to replace. When I bought the boat the hose, solenoid, regulator and pressure gauge were likely original to the boat so I replaced them all. I believe the hose, regulator and pressure gauge came as one piece already assembled.
The other failure was last year, the seal on one of the tanks valves went bad and wouldn’t allow a fill without leaking propane so they wouldn’t fill it, I had other tanks of course but did have the valve replaced as aluminum Marine propane tanks are expensive.
The lid on my propane locker is not sealed, never was, water off the deck drains into it and then overboard through the drain. The drain has never clogged yet, but if it does it’s going to be real easy to clean out as it’s about a 1 foot hose.
So two very easy to fix failures in six years, with three of them or so living aboard full time is next to nothing. I don’t understand why you have had failures, it is such a simple system, there just isn’t much to fail.

Well, I'm just griping. My failures are not an order of magnitude more than yours. None of them is a whole lot of trouble. I've been at it longer and so naturally there are more of them. Probably many of them were avoidable if I had been smarter.

This wouldn't bother me too much if I thought I didn't have a choice. But since I do have a choice the thought of just disappearing that whole system is attractive -- I'm sure you will understand.

Sort of like through hulls, right? I have them (17 of them!), I live with them, they are vaguely dangerous, require some maintenance, require some inspection, require some replacements once in a while (last month €1000 worth of gear and several days of labor by the way). It's just one of those things we have to live with. My bilge alarm is right next to my gas alarm, by the way. But imagine one day a way appeared for us to just not have any through hulls -- wouldn't that be just great?

So now you understand how I feel about gas on board.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

We never really use the gimbal the stove stays locked down, if we are really rolling at sea, she isn’t cooking, and I believe that to be unsafe anyway whether electric or gas, lots of hot stuff to burn you, so we eat sandwiches etc until the wx dies down, usually we aren’t that hungry in bad weather anyway.

I can assume that possibly being vegetarian may have an effect on cooking methods, as again I assume that meat takes longer to cook than most vegetarian dishes?

But for us an oven is essential, any or most “real” cooking involves the oven.
I can see cooking electrically if you have the excess power, and people keep talking about batteries, so I have to assume they motor a lot, cause of course batteries are a storage medium, and generating the power to begin with is I think the real issue, unless you motor a lot, then storage becomes the issue.
But I see electric cooking by whatever means to be secondary to gas, because having enough electricity is not easy, especially when you throw an oven into the mix, and a microwave really isn’t an oven.
Now if your running a generator anyway, well then sure why not, be foolish to not use a resource that’s already there.

Yes, I agree. For all the reasons you state, I don't plan to rip the gas system out of this boat. I could probably just about manage to cook without gas, but with lead batteries, I like to have the gas for cooking at sea or when I don't feel like firing up the generator.

I would get rid of gas only in a new built boat and only with a different type of electrical system. Key would be lithium batteries and lots of them so that you wouldn't need to worry about doing electric cooking off the batts. Right now I do very little electric cooking off the batts because their usable capacity is limited, Peukert messes things up at high settings, and because they have limited cycle life and I don't really want to work them hard. So gas still has a place on this particular boat.

If I ever have the money to build a new boat -- and that day now looks to be pushed back years because of this pandemic crisis -- I will have all of that PLUS solar built into the pilothouse roof. There will be very abundant, effortless power, and electric cooking will be natural.


I haven't thought about the oven issue. I do extremely little cooking in the oven myself, but some people I've had on board do use the oven a lot. I guess an electric convection oven ought to be usable but I haven't tried it. For sure though, I've never used a boat gas oven that was worth a damn. Mine is not hot, takes forever, consumes tons of gas. Whether or not you like cooking on a gas cooktop, I think for sure electric convection ovens are greatly superior to even good gas ovens.


Even if it's too much power to run off batteries, even lithium, I think it might be OK to need the generator to use the oven. With a heavy duty generator it's not a problem. In fact my boat was designed for the generator to be running whenever the boat is underway -- the original house battery bank was only 220 AH * 24v. It's no big deal to run it for a few hours if it's needed for a specific task -- it's completely inaudible from outside the boat and almost inaudible from inside the cabin, and is rated to go 20,000 hours.

[a64pilot]

The secret we found to our gas oven was to put mass in it to hold heat, a pizza stone works well, but without it, I assume temp changes rapidly. Ours is if anything too hot, to cook at 350 we need to set it at about 300, the stone may have something to do with that, or maybe is just the 33 ur old oven. It will easily hold over 400 F.

You can do without thru hulls, a sea chest. I looked at a home build that I probably should have bought, a steel boat that had a sea chest and real water proof doors etc. lots of really nice features, real engine room / work area etc.
But the boat still needed some interior work, and it was over 50’, and at the time I wasn’t sure we would do the cruising thing.