Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Dsanduril]

And just for everyone else's reference, Dockhead's 90A and 450Ah are at 24V. If you're trying to do the same thing on 450Ah (4xT105) at 12V you're looking at 180A and quickly approaching .5C.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Are you using induction exclusively? Do you have lithium batts? Do you just run the generator when using the induction cooker?

Until now we still used propane for the oven, but cooking has been all electric for about 5 years now. We still have AGM house batteries (Lifeline L16’s) The induction cooker easily runs on inverter. It is important to have an induction plate that reduces power by actually lowering amps instead of cycling a full 1,800W on and off. The better units have more settings that don’t cycle and cycle much smaller loads.
We do run the genset when cooking dinner because that is part of our daily routine. While we use a lot of power in the galley, we also run the watermaker, air conditioning and battery charger. This takes the heat and moisture of the day and the cooking out of the boat, provides water for another day or two and tops up the batteries for the night, which they like as they are AGM.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I certainly would not do that. If you're going to, look at combo microwaves. They are a convection oven and a microwave together in one box. Worth a look.

You'll have the same problem with tabletop appliances (convection ovens, microwaves) that you do with propane cookers - poor insulation. That's really what makes the boat warm when you cook. The solution is better insulation (ha!) and ventilation.

Our setup is based on decades of experience, not just an opinion floated here. Therefor I am sure you are wrong. The combo ovens are mediocre at each task because it’s all in one appliance. Also, they are much bigger and will never fit in the space used by a gimbal marine range. The microwave must be gimballed to be used during passages and there are small, inverter-type microwaves that are a good fit. That leaves the baking, toasting and grilling which is done brilliantly by the new generation of compact countertop convection ovens like made by Breville. They can air fry, proof dough, dehydrate etc. all in a relatively compact countertop unit that is very power efficient.

You do have a point about heat buildup; it is something we have been working on since 2003. This is why we use more appliances, like a bread maker, which reduce heat in the cabin by multiples. Also, we use a rather large grill in the cockpit which is propane powered and can be used for baking. A big combo oven unit has the same lousy insulation than more compact convection ovens like the Breville. And these are still much better than a marine propane range, which adds a ton of moisture into the cabin as well as more heat.

The important thing is to ban propane appliances from the galley. Safety and comfort are the big issues, but it is clear that it requires more work than many think and that for some boats it’s not really feasible (when no diesel genset can be fitted).

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Pete7

SWL and Noelex have 3 times the solar power, no idea what they do with it, guess they may as well make bread each day oh and they are another 7 deg further north. They won't even need a torch at night and probably need to leave the anchor ball up so everyone can see it rather than use a light.

We have heaps of power for most of the year, although it is put to work providing things such as electric cooking and hot water heating.

Winters at high latitudes are very different. The maximum sun angle is only around 10° at solar noon, so it does not take many hills around the anchorage to leave very little direct sunlight for the panels to work on. To illustrate the difference compared to other seasons, today it is still not summer and the sun angle is above 10° at 8pm.

For winter we obviously need a reasonable amount of solar installed in a location as shadow free on the boat as possible. With low sun angles the shadows are long so some conventional solar panel locations do not work very well. It is also important to have a boat that can run as efficiently as possible. The goal of still enjoying all the important luxuries while keeping the electricity consumption down can be achieved, but it takes some thought.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

. . . We do run the genset when cooking dinner because that is part of our daily routine. While we use a lot of power in the galley, we also run the watermaker, air conditioning and battery charger. This takes the heat and moisture of the day and the cooking out of the boat, provides water for another day or two and tops up the batteries for the night, which they like as they are AGM.. . .

As someone else mentioned, diesel generator changes everything. If it's a reasonable size, then you can bunch loads and every incremental additional load is nearly free.


When off grid for long periods (whole summer when we were in the Arctic), I run the generator twice a day, morning and evening, and just do all the heavy loads during those periods. Then coast on batteries in between. Like that, you're not counting amps and you just don't worry about it, other than a glance once in a while at the system voltage.


That's actually not all that hard duty for the batteries; another reason why I reluctantly ditched my lithium installation. The key is a quiet smooth generator which doesn't bother you to run.



Hardest duty for my batteries is long passages under sail, especially in stronger weather and on a heel. If you're making good speed you just hate to reef and slow down to run the generator, which doesn't like a heel. So I typically l run my batteries down further and do it only once a day.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think the different types of connectors vary a lot in quality. The cheap U.S. NEMA 1-15 ones are shocking. Especially considering that for a given wattage this connector has to carry double the current. The continental Shuko ones are better -- probably what SWL has, right? But I really like the expensive and bulky UK BS1363 individually fused ones. I used to think they were massive overkill; I've totally come around now. The BS1363 plug compared to other plugs is like the SmartPlug shore power connector compared to others, and for similar reasons (huge contact area, etc etc). Just don't buy the less expensive BS1363's, make sure the wiring is good and well connected, and you can put a couple of kilowatts through these with confidence.

The English style BS1363 plugs are an excellent design (although a little bulky) and we considered having those sockets installed, but all of our appliances that plug in are not high power draw (around 8 amps and most are much less) and after a decade in Europe all the plugs on our appliances have Schuko plugs and this was the system used in the Netherlands where the build was commissioned.

I unplug every appliance after use and turn the circuit breaker off. Overkill perhaps, but I’m a “safety girl” (and a sucker for romantic movies ).

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The English style BS1363 plugs are an excellent design (although a little bulky) and we considered having those sockets installed, but all of our appliances that plug in are not high power draw (around 8 amps and most are much less) and after a decade in Europe all the plugs on our appliances have Schuko plugs and this was the system used in the Netherlands where the build was commissioned.

I unplug every appliance after use and turn the circuit breaker off. Overkill perhaps, but I’m a “safety girl” (and a sucker for romantic movies ).

SWL

I think good quality Shuko are fine. 1000x better than those horrible American ones.



Still I'm pretty sure I would specify BS1363 if I were building a new boat. I buy electrical gear in different places and keep a supply of top quality plugs on board. Just chop off whatever other plug it came with and install the BS1363.


Yet one other advantage of the BS1363 is they have lots of room inside for a really good connection to the contact lugs. I crimp a copper cap onto the stripped wire end, then that clamps into each lug. This is a superior connection of the cable to the plug. The plugs are bulky but really worth it.


I guess a big percentage of electrical fires occur at the plugs.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think good quality Shuko are fine. 1000x better than those horrible American ones.

Still I'm pretty sure I would specify BS1363 if I were building a new boat. I buy electrical gear in different places and keep a supply of top quality plugs on board. Just chop off whatever other plug it came with and install the BS1363.

Yet one other advantage of the BS1363 is they have lots of room inside for a really good connection to the contact lugs. I crimp a copper cap onto the stripped wire end, then that clamps into each lug. This is a superior connection of the cable to the plug. The plugs are bulky but really worth it.

I guess a big percentage of electrical fires occur at the plugs.

One of the things I like about the British plugs is that can be independently fused. I think this would be a nice extra safety feature on a boat. If I had a generator equipped boat with multiple high powered appliances, I think I would standardise on these.

Interestingly, the British BS1363 plug is only rated at 13 amps vs the Schuko plug at 16 amps, but I suspect this is a legislative rather than practical difference.

To my eyes, the large contacts on the British plugs look capable of sustaining a higher current.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. . . Interestingly, the British BS1363 plug is only rated at 13 amps vs the Schuko plug at 16 amps, but I suspect this is a legislative rather than practical difference.

To my eyes, the large contacts on the British plugs look capable of sustaining a higher current.

The contact area is much greater than with the Shucko plug, and even greater than meets the eye, because the flat ones inherently will have more contact with the opposite part, than round ones can, for a given size. This is the same idea as the SmartPlug shore power connection, which I guess takes some clues from the BS1363.



The rating is just more conservative, and that's fine with me. I don't think I have any plug-in gear which needs more than 12 amps.

[Dsanduril]

The reason for the fuse in a BS1363 is because in a ring main installation the ring typically has a 30/32A rating (and thus fuse/circuit protection). If you connect a 13A (or less) appliance with a cord suitable for that appliance then the cord is not protected by the ring's overcurrent protection device.

In a radial system (with an appropriately sized breaker/fuse) the fuse at the plug becomes unnecessary. There are benefits and drawbacks to both systems.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

The reason for the fuse in a BS1363 is because in a ring main installation the ring typically has a 30/32A rating (and thus fuse/circuit protection). If you connect a 13A (or less) appliance with a cord suitable for that appliance then the cord is not protected by the ring's overcurrent protection device.

In a radial system (with an appropriately sized breaker/fuse) the fuse at the plug becomes unnecessary. There are benefits and drawbacks to both systems.

My ring main is 16 amps, so not an issue here, but out of curiosity, what are the drawbacks of a ring main? They seem pretty great to me. Less cable needed, dramatically less in case of my boat, but less voltage drop. Every device is fused with a fuse of appropriate size for that device, not sized for the capacity of the whole circuit. I know you can screw them up by adding spurs or allowing one of the legs to be broken, but I have very carefully avoided touching mine, which is in pristine unmodified condition with nothing whatsoever added to it.

[Dsanduril]

Rings are great at reducing voltage drop and wire sizes (advantages). But most rings (certainly not all, but those installed to British code) are installed with wire ampacity that is greater than half the ring capacity but less than 100% of the ring capacity (the code calls for 2/3). If the ring becomes single-ended then the loaded wire can become overloaded. Single-ending a ring can happen without any fault being detected. Upsizing the wire to meet the full ring capacity increases costs and thus negates some of the benefits.

Sort of a corollary to that, fault currents in a ring circuit are much more complicated to calculate, measure, and clear because there are two potential flow paths.

Definitely not saying rings are a bad thing, in certain ways, to me, they make more sense than radial systems. As with everything though, there are pluses and minuses to both approaches.

[Pelagic]

Quote Auspiscious
"When someone says something that does not pass engineering muster (like “induction is simpler” or “induction is safer”) I push back. There are lots of places where different strokes applies. Not here. If you want induction because you want it that’s fine, but you should be well aware of the implications and the risks you are taking. Most importantly misinformed opinion should not be presented as fact"


This has been a great discussion, but often the nuances of why someone makes a personal cooking choice is lost or misunderstood in the explanation.

Auspicious is correct, Preference is not Fact!

But the fact that an individual "Feels" safer cooking with induction rather than an open flame and explosive gasses, should not be dismissed as being entirely wrong, or without merit.

Electrical Fires can be caused by any appliance or tragically by charging lithium batteries on a dive boat.

Gas explosions on boats and RV's were fairly common (less now)...just wonder how many deaths or serious oil burns have been caused by induction cooking?

I don't cook much and admire someone like Auspicious who obviously excels at it and is passionate about keeping that standard up at Sea.
Professional Chefs still prefer gas

Others like me are happy to use a simple, cool, clean, cooking appliance like Induction with a backup.
If it breaks, I'd still buy a new one when I got the chance.

"So while many try to assign their decision simply to Facts!.... they are often made from kneaded feelings that are a Lump, rather than a Sum!"

I see cooking as one of those types of deciisions and ironically, the quote above is attributed to Hannibal Lector!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

….

I understand the concern. It is not well founded. Insurance industry statistics point to electrical sources as the overwhelming cause of fire. The article I recalled upthread is https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...boat-fires.asp . As it happens, I am acquainted with the author who is currently Technical Director at BoatUS. In addition to correspondence I very occasionally dine with Beth and Evans. We’ve talked about this very issue and how the numbers might differ if you don’t include trailer boats. It doesn’t really change anything.

The best thing one might do is not plug into shore power. However high current DC applications go up with cruising boats. Current statistics are always aft looking so don’t reflect increased AC usage on board as more and bigger inverters enter the fleet. Induction is not well reflected in statistics and cannot possibly make things better.
…..

DC & AC electrical start 52% of fires per the link provided. I'm not sure I would be willing to describe that as "overwhelming".

Looking more closely at the breakdown, of the 35% for DC 13% is for the engine so there would be no risk change to that regardless of whether you had electrical cooking or not. 6% are related to batteries and the article makes the comment that the batteries being in the engine compartment is a big part of that.

For the remainder of DC ignitions the article indicates "Outside of the engine room, there is no single area where most of the remaining DC electrical fires originate. Locations are pretty much equally spread across electrical panels, instrument panel gauges, bilge pumps, lights, and equipment of various types, including air conditioners, windlasses, and winches. Most of these fires could have been prevented if adequately sized, marine-grade wiring had been used and loose or corroded connections had been located and addressed." So using the right cabling and doing some maintenance would alleviate most of the risk.

For the AC side the article points to shorepower connections (cord and boatside connector), heaters used in stead of winterizing and battery chargers (specifically citing use of automotive rather than marine chargers) as major, possibly the majority of ignition sources for this type. It does not breakdown the actual numbers.

Electrical fires that would be related to electrical cooking would be a small fraction of the electrically started fires.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Every device is fused with a fuse of appropriate size for that device, not sized for the capacity of the whole circuit.

This is a big advantage of the British plug system. They seem to be fitted with only a limited range of fuse sizes, but this could be easily fixed.

The ideal in my view would be a radial system with a British plug. This is arguably overkill, but for a generator based marine system with high power appliances it would seem to be the ideal option.

Whether or not this is permitted in the CE standards should be checked by anyone contemplating this solution.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

100A coming out of the battery is 100A coming out of the battery - the battery doesn’t care about the distance to the load. With a windlass you pull that load in generally pretty short bursts, and for a relatively short time (even pulling up all 100m of our chain takes 5 minutes or less). An induction hob on high can draw that same amount for a lot longer. As Dockhead notes, it doesn’t always have to be on high, but if you want that pot of pasta water to boil quickly

That's a tautology.

The point I was making is that if you are drawing 1000W at the windlass, the draw on the battery, 30' away, will be larger than if you are drawing 1000W at the inverter right next to the battery.