Cutter vs Solent Rig

[usdivers61]

Hey guys,


I am interested in adding a cutter or solent rig to my sloop for versatile of sail plan.


I would be interested in hearing from owners who have added one or the other, and what were the costs and hassles involved.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by usdivers61

Hey guys,


I am interested in adding a cutter or solent rig to my sloop for versatile of sail plan.


I would be interested in hearing from owners who have added one or the other, and what were the costs and hassles involved.

It's pretty small sail area and not a huge load on the solent. You already have the real forestay doing the work. Just a matter of stringing up the extra stay.

Do you plan furling as well or hank on? Do you have a way to run the sheets?

[usdivers61]

Originally Posted by Chotu

It's pretty small sail area and not a huge load on the solent. You already have the real forestay doing the work. Just a matter of stringing up the extra stay.

Do you plan furling as well or hank on? Do you have a way to run the sheets?

If I decide on Solent - that would be furling, as usually when solent rigs are up, only one of the rigs are pulled out.


In regards to Cutter...still not sure, as I know with that rig you can use both headsails.


If price for either rig was the same, I would go the cutter rig, but if there is a big difference - the solent.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^^^
Assuming a masthead rig...

With the Solent there is no need for running backstays, with the cutter there usually. is.

with the Solent, tacking the foresail usually requires rolling it up. With a cutter it will usually slide through, especially if the staysail is set

With a true cutter, the mast is a bit further aft and the main a bit smaller. When you simply add an inner forestay to a sloop, the foretriangle gets a little crowded IMO, and the advantages of the dual foresails is dimmed a bit.

All in all, I've been happy with our Solent rig, but it was designed as such from the start, and she is fractional which kinda changes the odds a bit. We've done a lot of miles with it and find it satisfactory.

Jim

[CassidyNZ]

Converting a sloop to cutter will as others have said require running backstays and I would go quite a distance to avoid those - they always get in the way.

As far as versatility goes, the Solent rig, if both headstays are on furlers, allows a 135% genoa on the main headstay with a perhaps 100% heavy duty jib on the secondary stay. This gives space for a (third) baby stay to use for a hank-on storm jib. With this setup one can manage just about any weather. A cutter rig leaves a shortage of space for another stay for a hank-on storm jib (a mandatory requirement for Cat 1 in NZ) unless the second (inner) jib is hank-on which in my experience is quite rare.

That said, having to roll in the front jib every time I tack is a total downer. I guess it’s acceptable to normally sail using the 2nd jib and use the front genoa for long distance sailing where tacking is less frequent. Having a badly disturbed air flow onto the second jib is just a smidgeon less frustrating.

Hence I still have a sloop (with a baby stay for the storm jib).

[a64pilot]

Not trying to be a pain, but you can’t really convert a sloop to a cutter.
You can of course make it a cutter rigged sloop, which is a little different.
A cutter is I believe more of a head sail driven boat.
But I’m no real experienced sailor, just have been reading a little.

Curious though, is my Code Zero similar to a solent rig? Except that it’s in front of the Genoa and not behind it.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Hence I still have a sloop (with a baby stay for the storm jib).

Why wouldn’t a Cutter’s stay sail be acceptable as a storm job if it was heavy enough cloth?

[model 10]

It was a no brainer on our sloop because it has a bowsprit. The Solent furler goes to a stemhead fitting. Pretty easy compared to adding deck fittings and back stays etc for a cutter rig. We have a fat 125% Genoa for the head sail and a 100% jib on the Solent. I use a 3/8" fuzzy line for the Genoa furler so it rolls up easier.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I am interested in adding a cutter or solent rig to my sloop for versatile of sail plan."

What, precisely, are you hoping to achieve - in PRACTICAL terms - by doing this? What, precisely, is it you are hoping your boat will do after the conversion that she won't do now?

It seems to me that Jim Cate, in his post above, damns with scant praise the solent rig on his rather sophisticated boat which was designed, AFAIK, ab initio with a Solent rig. And Jim has a lot of miles behind 'im :-)

It seems to me that you should conduct a SERIOUS cost/benefit analysis in regard to your proposal. Gut feel sez that any post-conversion benefits in terms of the boat's behaviour under stress of weather (if that's what you are after) can be costlessly and effortlessly achieved via application of seamanship.

And if the weather isn't stressful, then there is, of course, no case to be made for either a cutter or a Solent rig.

You asked in another thread about techniques for coming alongside. I got started on a reply that turned out to be a very detailed elucidation of just what it is I do to get into and out of my VERY tight slip. Since these sorts of things become "second nature", applying strict analytical thought to the procedure has been interesting for me. If you are still interested, I'll see if I can complete it during the day.

All the best

TrentePieds

[Scaramanga F25]

You cannot change your sloop unto a cutter unless you move your mast aft!

But, you can have a double head rig, either permanent or to a removeable inner forestay on a hyfield lever.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

you can’t really convert a sloop to a cutter.

actually, you can . . . . by adding a bowsprit (which moves the mainsail back relative to the total sail plan).

[jmh2002]

Yeah, and I think the terms are being used somewhat generically, to describe 'multi headsail' (or should we say 'foresail') setups.

Take a look at modern race boats like Comanche, Rambler 88, Scallywag, etc, and even the Volvo boats - multiple foresails are back in fashion. Not to mention the big multihulls (eg: Ultime class), although they tend to use the foresails separately, rather than in combination.

But I'm not sure any of these would be described as either Cutter or Solent rigs

See 3 'Foresails' in use here:

[toddster8]

I attended a seminar lead by Carol Hasse (Port Townsend Sails) on this topic, and I believe she has some related information on her web site somewhere. Specifically, she was advocating adding a removable inner forestay for a storm jib.
IIRC, she gave a specific formula (which I can't lay hands on at the moment) for the sail area required to make an inner "working jib" worthwhile, on the same stay. Which boiled down to, most sloops just don't have enough room in the triangle. That is,you can add such a sail, but won't get any significant benefit from it. I figured I could barely meet her formula by adding 10% or so overlap. She was advocating the "working staysail" for the 30 - 45 knot wind-range. Between that of the reefed genoa and the storm jib ranges. (I.e. those times when I roll-in the genoa to just a little flag and head for the barn.)

If the wind were blowing 40 knots, then increased to the "storm jib" range, I cannot see myself going out there and changing sails!

I did see somewhere that some sloops like mine did have such sails in the 70's (hoisted to the pole-lift bracket, without runners) but IDK if they were using them for the same thing. More likely, perhaps, some obsolete theory on getting an extra quarter-knot during a race.

[Scaramanga F25]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

actually, you can . . . . by adding a bowsprit (which moves the mainsail back relative to the total sail plan).

No, you cannot, it is the sail plan ( mast position ) in relation to the
CLR i.e. ( Hull+keel).

[SteveSadler]

Having delivered boats of both rigs, the Solent stay has a big advantage of not having to change headsails when going to weather in strong wind. Rolling up the 135 and setting the 100 is easy and will point well. But 95% of the time they are just in the way and tacking is a lot of work. If it’s removable where do you store it? I think perhaps just a removable stay and hank on sail may be the best compromise