Cutter vs Solent Rig

[B23iL23]

This is our setup.



The inner is a self tacking staysail for heavier winds but can be used along with the 110% genoa on a reach. Middle (Genoa) is the most used on a windy reach, light upwind. Furthest forward is a Code 0 for downwind work. All on electric/hydraulic furlers. Asymmetric spinnaker can be setup on the sprit for light downwind work.



Yes there are running backstays when the staysail is used (and the wind gets up).

[DMCantor]

On our Solent rig, the genoa is large (135%), and cut deep. We almost always use it for reaching and running. Having to roll it up to tack is a rare experience. We have occasionally used the foresail for beating in extremely light winds, though.



Our solent sail is cut very flat, and is our go-to sail when going upwind. In strong conditions, it also works well on a reach. Since it is so flat, rolling the sail part way is an easy and effective way to reef. You don't really give up any sail shape.



We have chartered cutters, and find that the cutter sail doesn't add much except in very specific conditions.

[Dougtiff]

As a Rigger, I have converted two of my own boat's from a Cutter to a Slutter, as the English say, and a couple of customer's as well. The length's being from 36 to 45, the attachment works well, by going to the spreader, height wise, as the lower's are attached there are a back up, without running back stay's, the Staysail is small enough, that the load is not a problem, this sail is not for being a combination to be used with the head sail, but for heavy weather, with the head sail, not in use, I use about 9 oz. cloth, and have it attached to a roller furler, so even the small area can be reduced, also the sail area is moved back, which helps handling the boat, a hank on can be used of coarse, but if you are in heavy weather, the last thing you want to do is leave the cockpit, and go forward on the deck, hence the furler, the deck attachment needs to be strong, so finding a bulkhead or other attachment is paramount, the inner stay does not need to be parallel with the head stay, the sail is designed with the clew about eye height off the deck,a track or some times a eye bolt needs to be added for the sheet lead's, there's a lot going on, but a great addition to a serious cruising boat, when it hits the fan, snugging down safely from the cockpit pays for it all.

[Tillsbury]

Dougtiff, could you elaborate a bit on your top fitting?

I note that Patrick Laine recently added a solent stay to his production boat and he ia very pleased with the result. I’ve asked him to do a video on his conversion.

[usdivers61]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

Having delivered boats of both rigs, the Solent stay has a big advantage of not having to change headsails when going to weather in strong wind. Rolling up the 135 and setting the 100 is easy and will point well. But 95% of the time they are just in the way and tacking is a lot of work. If it’s removable where do you store it? I think perhaps just a removable stay and hank on sail may be the best compromise

Thanks Steve, that is a really good idea, and is also why I want that advantage of the inner head stay. I think I will take you up on your advice and rig the fore deck as you have suggested.


In relation to your set-up, what is the most common sail that you hoist on your solent set up?

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Not trying to be a pain, but you can’t really convert a sloop to a cutter.
You can of course make it a cutter rigged sloop, which is a little different.
A cutter is I believe more of a head sail driven boat.
But I’m no real experienced sailor, just have been reading a little.

Curious though, is my Code Zero similar to a solent rig? Except that it’s in front of the Genoa and not behind it.

This is correct, a true cutter has the mast further back and its driven more by headsail or smaller mainsail. you can rerig a sloop as a cutter rigged sloop but the measurements and angles are not quite as versatile as a true cutter. the advantage is the same though, you split your front sails into smaller more managable sizes, provided your sails are made for this setup.

for the running backstays, it depends on the rig. not all cutters use running backstays. I have a Passport 42 Cutter, it uses intermediate backstays or jack stays. attach at the same point but run aft of the other shroads and stays. IF i was going to do more heavy weather sailing i might add running backstays as they are stronger. so far i see no need its a good boat.

a solent rig gets setup like a code zero furler. that means you can have your big sail on the furler and have smaller sails or light wind sails ready to go up.

we have lost a lot of sailor knowlege about handling cuttters. I reccomend you read the bible on this subject "Further Offshore". it was written between the 50's into the 60's after the war and describes the pre rule setups and industry changes. it covers cutters well. based on it the front sails on a cutter are supposed to be much larger than most have. more like a large 110-130% jib top and a 130-150% stay sail genoa. combined this sail area is over 180%, remember the mast is further aft. my boat came with the standard selftacking 90% working staysail. not overly impressive and good for a lazy cruise.the new race boats use jib tops and staysails now.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Why wouldn’t a Cutter’s stay sail be acceptable as a storm job if it was heavy enough cloth?

it would be. a lot of cutters are rigged with a furling jib and hank on staysail so they can switch to a storm staysail. the other option is to use a furler and have the sail maker put a foam luff in with thicker fabric. size it so when you furl in a few turns its a storm sail. it isnt as efficient, but beats getting flogged to death trying to switch out hanked on sails.

Stay sails are pretty small and dont need as thick as fabric, even for the storm sail. I would reccomend that new dyneema sailcloth they have now. lightwieght with strength but that small of a sail wont be too expensive.

[Mikado]

I added an inner foresail to my ketch making it a Cutter Ketch. I did the work myself except for mounting the bracket on the mast about even with the spreaders.

I purchased a complete, almost new ProFurl system including the sail from a guy on Craigslist for around $250. I think it was the jib on a 26' boat.

It does not have backstays. I looked at all the cutters in the marina and almost all had the cutter running parallel with the jib so that made locating the base pretty easy. The area of the deck I mounted the base to is above the sail locker so it was easy to install a very large SS backing plate.

I just finished a 1000 mile trip during which I had all four sails set much of the time. Several runs down wind I had the jib and inner foresail wing on wing and it worked out very well.

All in all I am extremely happy with my decision to upgrade. I think it's one of my few major projects that has worked out as I hoped/planned that it would :-)

Good luck with your project.

Jeff

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

No, you cannot, it is the sail plan ( mast position ) in relation to the
CLR i.e. ( Hull+keel).

Please take a look at the pardey's boat - most definitely a cutter - the jib is set way out on the end of a low sprint - the staysail is set on the bow.

This is a typical definition (this particular quote is from wiki).

"Cutters had a rig with a single mast more centrally located, which could vary from 50% to 70% of the length of the sailplan, "

and from a na - "And even a mast located forward of station 4 with a long bowsprit may be more properly referred to as a cutter."

Someone somewhere may refer to only the hull, possibly aft of station 4, but it is not the normal definition.

Means, yes, in fact, you actually can create a technically proper cutter by adding a bow sprint - whether it will be a well balanced boat is another question - many with sprints added turn out well but a few do not.

[Rumbottle]

For long ocean passages I converted my Catalina 30 masthead sloop rig to a cutter rig with an inner stay from the single spreaders, parallel to the forestay, to an eye on the deck, secured by a highfield lever. When the weather got heavy and was forward of the beam I used a No.3 (or even smaller storm jib) on the forestay, rigged a hanked-on staysail to the inner fore-stay and put 3 reefs in the main (with peak down to the spreaders). It worked extremely well in winds over 30 knots, with low center of effort and heaps of 'grunt'.
An added benefit was that if I ever lost a cap shroud or forestay there was a much better chance of having the lower (from the spreaders) part of the mast remaining.

It was for heavy weather, offshore sailing. For sailing around the buoys I wouldn't bother.

[usdivers61]

Originally Posted by Rumbottle

For long ocean passages I converted my Catalina 30 masthead sloop rig to a cutter rig with an inner stay from the single spreaders, parallel to the forestay, to an eye on the deck, secured by a highfield lever. When the weather got heavy and was forward of the beam I used a No.3 (or even smaller storm jib) on the forestay, rigged a hanked-on staysail to the inner fore-stay and put 3 reefs in the main (with peak down to the spreaders). It worked extremely well in winds over 30 knots, with low center of effort and heaps of 'grunt'.
An added benefit was that if I ever lost a cap shroud or forestay there was a much better chance of having the lower (from the spreaders) part of the mast remaining.

It was for heavy weather, offshore sailing. For sailing around the buoys I wouldn't bother.

Great set up!

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "I am interested in adding a cutter or solent rig to my sloop for versatile of sail plan."

What, precisely, are you hoping to achieve ...What, precisely, is it you are hoping your boat will do after the conversion that she won't do now?

TrentePieds

Definitely a key question:
We have a Solent/Slutter rigged 35-footer and think it's the dog's danglies, but a large part of our sailing is offshore/off-wind and this sail plan allows us lots of alternatives without ever having to leave the safety of the cockpit. If I was outfitting a sloop to do the same tomorrow, I'd definitely convert; but if I was just planning on inshore/weekend sailing then I can't see as you'd gain enough to justify the investment of circa $6-7000 (for something our size) of adding that second sail.

[usdivers61]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

Definitely a key question:
We have a Solent/Slutter rigged 35-footer and think it's the dog's danglies, but a large part of our sailing is offshore/off-wind and this sail plan allows us lots of alternatives without ever having to leave the safety of the cockpit. If I was outfitting a sloop to do the same tomorrow, I'd definitely convert; but if I was just planning on inshore/weekend sailing then I can't see as you'd gain enough to justify the investment of circa $6-7000 (for something our size) of adding that second sail.

That is the same I want for my boat. Most of my sailing is off-shore.

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by usdivers61

That is the same I want for my boat. Most of my sailing is off-shore.

And off-wind too?

We have a 110% very flat-cut and relatively heavy clothed blade jib on the inner roller and a massive, fairly light-weight (1oz lighter than recommended for its size) clothed genoa, cut with lots of belly on the forward roller - the cruising chutes now gone. Sailing to windward (when we really can't avoid it) we use the blade-jib so tacking's no different to a sloop rig, though I suspect that the rolled genoa immediately ahead of it must disturb the air flow and cost us a couple of degrees close-hauled? Off the wind we mainly use the genoa unless winds are over 20 knots apparent, by when we switch to the stronger jib which by then gives more than enough sail area for our needs; to gybe that we need to roll it in/out again.

For offshore/downwind passage making we rarely even get the mainsail out - we left Mindello in the Cape Verdes with it bagged/zipped and never saw it again until we reached French Guiana; just a couple of weeks ago we sailed French Poly to Tonga and again it never saw the light of day. We like to mount twin poles, though they're both fairly short, so we've probably still no more than the whole genoa's area combined flying, but with it split either side of the mast it reduces the roll. But we're conservative sailors, so once the weather even threatens to get squally/unsettled at least one and more often both poles come down, whereafter we don't need to leave the cockpit.

We usually set sail with two sets of sheets on the genoa then if the poles are down we can easily & quickly reeve a second sheet via the end of the hauled-out boom (gybe preventer keeps it out there) and 'pole' the genoa out using that. Beyond the need to roll/unroll the genoa when changing tack, the other disadvantage/thing to keep an eye on, are the loose sheets from the not in use genoa abrading against the jib when that's in use; it's not serious and if the sea/motion's rough we just live with it, but if conditions allow we'll step forward and pull them clear - even a 'slight' chafe adds up over 2-3 weeks.

Using just the headsails makes life easy for the wind vane or autohelm steering as the centre of effort's well forward, nobody's going to get brained by a gybing boom and if conditions allow even a bit of head sail on either side of the mast, the roll is significantly reduced.

[a64pilot]

My IP is a Cutter by virtue of its bow sprit.
However when the wind is forward of 90 degrees running both the staysail and the Genoa is way more effective than just the Genoa alone.
I theorize that aerodynamically the two of them form a slot, like is on the leading edge of some aircraft.
The staysail by itself isn’t very effective, it’s a high wind sail when used alone and I believe I had Mack Sails make mine from 11 oz cloth. The 135 Genoa has the foam strip, but it’s only still a decent sail fueled to maybe 100%, beyond that the shape is just gone.

The Code zero is in my opinion a reaching sail more than a downwind sail, although it works well downwind, but if your not using it on a reach, your missing out on a good light wind sail.
The staysail unless high winds, is next to useless downwind