Solent vs Cutter rigs

[ontherocks83]

I know that a Solent rig has 2 head sails that are used independent of each other and a Cutter rig has 2 head sails that can be used at the same time, but my question is what are the pros and cons of both designs? If you had identical boats, one with each rig, which would you prefer and why? (I know cutter rigs usually have the mast set more aft but in this example I am basing it off of a sloop that comes optional with either rig and the mast doesn't get relocated.)

With only having sailed traditional sloops, I like the idea of a Solent rig with the option of the jib being on a self tacking track to make single handed up wind sailing easier, and using the genoa for off wind sailing, but other than that I am not sure if there are other things to consider.

[Suijin]

I have a cutter and based on my experience on both rigs I think the solent is an evolution of convenience and ease of use.

A cutter sails best, at least to windward, with both headsails as they are cut to complement each other and work together. But tacking is more of a production as the yankee has to go through the slot.

I think the one advantage of the cutter is you can sail with staysail alone in higher winds and since it is lower and closer to the mast the COE is better. There is another advantage which is having a smaller, more manageable main but that dependent on individual boat design.

I think those advantages are offset by the convenience of a solent rig. It just fits how people sail their boats and is generally easier if you are short handed.

[ontherocks83]

Thanks Suijin that's kind of what I was assuming and its nice to hear from first hand experience. The big question though is if you had to chose for your next boat would you stay cutter or go solent?

[jls095]

I have a sloop that I modified to be a solent rig by adding a wire stay about 10" behind the headstay. It is designed to be as strong as the headstay in order to add redundancy. My sail plan is a little different than the typical solent plan, which has a larger genoa on the headstay and a smaller jib on the solent. Instead, I have a 115% furling genoa on the headstay that gets used in wind 13-25 knots. For the solent stay, I have a 150% hank-on technical tri-radial drifter that works well on all points of sail below 15 knots and a blade-type staysail and storm jib for winds above 25-30 knots. The staysail and storm jib are sheeted forward and inside of the stays while the genoa and drifter use tracks on the toe rail. I debated two furlers but decided that the wire stay would give me more versatility. I also don't mind working on the deck. Another reason I opted for the solent was that I could use the stem fitting (which I ended up strengthening under the deck anyway). Lots to consider as you can see and a lot of different ways to make things work. Good luck!

[Dsanduril]

I miss my cutter As Suijin says, when the wind pipes up you can sail with only the staysail forward and with a reefed main. This puts the CoE low and centered, whereas on a sloop with a reefed jib the sail area moves forward. Even though a solent sets a smaller headsail rather than reefing the larger one it still moves the CoE forward. Better than nothing, but not as nice as the versatility of a cutter.

Suijin notes that in a cutter the headsails should work together when going to weather, this takes the right sheet lead layout and the right cut from the sailmaker. Finding a sailmaker who truly understands that can be a bit more difficult. When the jib/genoa and staysail are truly working together and you can see the streamlines in the slot it is truly a beautiful thing.

As I said, when the weather gets up I really, really miss my cutter.

[billknny]

For the modification of an existing boat, turning a sloop into a cutter is rarely as successful as people hope for. The complications are large from a structural and rigging point of view, and it is rare that the sails work together as they should. Everything from rigging loads to sheeting angles makes this a problematic project. Not that it CAN'T be done well, but a cutter is NOT a sloop with an extra wire added.

One (true) story of a failed staysail installation: A staysail was added to a cruising boat. The owner bragged about being about to point at least 10 degrees higher because of the tighter sheeting angle on the staysail. While it was true the air flow across the sail as shown by the telltales was smooth and attached at that angle, he was pointing the boat much further into the wind than the wide cruising keel could possibly generate lift. His speed was slower, and his leeway was far higher, than would have been the case with standard headsail. He THOUGHT it was a great success, until he sailed alongside a sistership who kicked his butt upwind.

On the other hand... a solent can be easily and successfully added to (almost) any sloop without too much redesign. The sail plan and rigging are pretty much ready to go form both an aerodynamic and loading standpoint.

If I wanted a two headsail rig from scratch, I'd go with the cutter. It makes sense to take advantage of the benefits of the twin headsails right from the original drawing board. Adding a self-tacking staysail, and it becomes as friendly a boat to short handed crews as you will find.

If I had a sloop and wanted to add an extra head sail, I'd go with the solent because it is simpler and much more likely to be fully successful.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by billknny

If I wanted a two headsail rig from scratch, I'd go with the cutter. It makes sense to take advantage of the benefits of the twin headsails right from the original drawing board. Adding a self-tacking staysail, and it becomes as friendly a boat to short handed crews as you will find.

If I had a sloop and wanted to add an extra head sail, I'd go with the solent because it is simpler and much more likely to be fully successful.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that any self tacking headsail loses some performance as compared to a traditional head sail, but my view into all of this is to try to find a happy balance of power/flexibility of sail plan/ease of use.

Would it be safe to say then that a cutter with self tacking stay sail is more flexible in sail options and as easy to use as a solent rig?

[nwdiver]

Solent can have self tacking 100% jib, large 150% genoa and a clear fore deck for a dingy (self tacking except for the dingy), cutter can use all 3 sails and unless your very large a stay in the middle of you fore deck so not much room for a dingy up there, I know people who sail sloops so the have dingy storage forward......

[a64pilot]

I’m 38’, and there is 11’ between my mast and the Staysail foiler.
I’m self tacking, but the boom is very easily removed and I could put a 10’6” dinghy up there pretty easily and loose foot the Staysail if I use the term correctly.
It would make tacking more problematic as the dinghy is there, and I couldn’t sheet it in real tight either.
If I ever make a very long crossing, that is my plan, although I have not done it yet.
However as I expect them to be mostly downwind passages, I don’t think it will have much effect

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that any self tacking headsail loses some performance as compared to a traditional head sail, but my view into all of this is to try to find a happy balance of power/flexibility of sail plan/ease of use.

Would it be safe to say then that a cutter with self tacking stay sail is more flexible in sail options and as easy to use as a solent rig?

I have a self-tacking staysail on my cutter, and it's very convenient, but it has a number of minuses (can't heave to with it without belaying the track; poor control of sail shape requiring barber haulers). One HUGE plus however is that the whole rig becomes self tacking when you are in storm posture on staysail and deeply reefed main alone.



I wouldn't compare really using a cutter rig to using a solent rig -- you use them differently. Solent rig is not really even a rig -- it's just a way to change headsails without handling sails. Having the ability to change headsails is very admirable, but I don't think I would put up with all that windage, which will really hurt performance upwind. If I were designing a boat from scratch, I believe I would make it a cutter with a non-overlapping jib, and a retractable sprit for a cruising code 0 as the light air headsail.


But that's just my own preference -- I'm the guy who sails a thousand miles upwind every year. For other folks there may be different optimum choices.


One thing I can say for sure -- make sure your principle headsail is a NON-OVERLAPPING jib. A good one of these is almost as powerful as an overlapping genoa or yankee even in light wind, and will beat the pants off it upwind, not to mention in strong weather.



When I ordered new carbon sails a few years ago (I sold an old Porsche to finance it), I ordered BOTH a non-overlapping blade, AND standard 120% yankee. They are both brilliant, but the blade is so good in so many situations, that I haven't even had the yankee out of the bag now in a couple of years. It is just far less versatile than the blade -- the only time it is more powerful is in light wind with the wind on or behind the beam, and even then the difference is surprisingly little. Whereas I can carry the full blade up to 30 knots apparent without reefing, or do 2/3 of true wind speed down to 5 knots of wind, so long as the wind isn't behind the beam. Just incredible versatility.



Only downside is the very high aspect ratio means very high sheet tension -- I ripped a jib car track out of the deck last year

[Jim Cate]

FWIW:

One thing not mentions yet is that if you add a conventional staysail, you will need running backstays to support the center of the mast when loading the staysail up. The Solent avoids this requirement, and that is the main reason it has been developed I believe.

Our boat has a fractional rig with a Solent stay and swept back spreaders. In our case, we can sail without runners up to around 12-15 knots apparent and keep the mast straight enough. Beyond that the runners are needed to avoid excessive headstay sag. Also, I'd have to mention that when tacking or gybing the genoa, it must be rolled up... simply too hard to get it through the slot, even with crew pulling it through. This is a real PItA when sailing in areas where frequent tacking is needed. IN our case the Solent is similar to a #4 jib (or blade) and tacks quite easily, so we often use it when expecting to short tack, even when the genoa would give a bit better speed in lighter winds.

One other thing we do with the Solent is when sailing deep angles with a poled out genoa, we will set the Solent to leeward. In light airs, adds noticeable speed.

It is a useful rig, but as noted, has some operational drawbacks.

Jim

[john61ct]

Are any of these choices **not** suitable for single-handing?

[a64pilot]

I had a 135% Genoa made in an attempt to gain some light wind performance, and some downwind.
Now I have a code zero, and am seriously considering having my 135 cut down to the standard 110, cause I don’t like the 135 for going upwind, my boat isn’t an upwind machine by any measure, but the 135 didn’t help matters

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Are any of these choices **not** suitable for single-handing?

That doesn't depend on the type of rig, it depends on how it's executed and what kind of furling there is.



If anything, the most unsuitable rig for single handing will be the sloop, where you can't change the sail plan without help handling sails. Solent or cutter give you different sail plans without handling sails (and a ketch even more so). Cutter gives you a built-in, always ready storm jib which you can deploy from the cockpit if it's on a furler -- brilliant. If besides that you have an in-mast furling main, you can put the boat into full storm mode without leaving the cockpit.


No one has mentioned ketches here by the way -- not popular these days, and definitely at a disadvantage upwind (and what concerns cost), but huge variability of sail plan is a huge plus for long distance, short-handed sailors who have to deal with different weather conditions.

[B23iL23]

I like the Solent with a good sized self tacker on the inner stay, then a large 135% on the forward. So long as they are well cut sails, the forward 135 will give you great upwind performance in light airs, then drop down to the inner one as the wind gets up. Usually don't need running backstays unless you've got a large whipy mast and the wind is > 25 knots (varies by rig)