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Old 19-07-2021, 08:54   #361
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Lagoon will loose sales this, as they should but this is not the only model with problems. I personally know other owners of other Lagoon models who have paid out of pocket to repair major hull defects. Most of this is kept on the QT for resale of said boats.
This same thing happens with most production boats. Had it not been for YouTube, I doubt we would know this much about the 450.

If you buy new, make sure you have a solid warranty. If you buy used do your homework!
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Old 19-07-2021, 08:59   #362
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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This same thing happens with most production boats. Had it not been for YouTube, I doubt we would know this much about the 450.



If you buy new, make sure you have a solid warranty. If you buy used do your homework!


I surely hope most production boats don’t have bulkhead failures. We’ve owned 11 catamarans and none have had any form of bulkhead failure. The catamaran we own now has flipped once and flown a hull numerous times and no sign of any bulkhead failure or flexing.
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Old 19-07-2021, 09:01   #363
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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I surely hope most production boats don’t have bulkhead failures. We’ve owned 11 catamarans and none have had any form of bulkhead failure. The catamaran we own now has flipped once and flown a hull numerous times and no sign of any bulkhead failure or flexing.
I don't mean bulkheads specifically, I mean problems that are fixed without making a big deal out of it for various reasons such as resale.
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Old 19-07-2021, 10:42   #364
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Fair enough, what if it wasn’t a salvaged boat? Should Lagoon reimburse the owners of non salvaged 450’s that have to have bulkhead repairs?
No, probably not if you do it yourself without contacting Lagoon and ask later for money. But if you go via a Lagoon dealer, let them inspect and give them a chance to fix the issue, Lagoon will pay very likely - as they already do.
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Old 19-07-2021, 12:44   #365
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=smj;3447452]
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They should honor whatever warranty is in place for the boat and follow whatever law is required. Anything beyond that is "goodwill" and will be done to protect their reputation.



My hope would be that they pay to fix every 450 bulkhead and all related damage. The reality is they are a corporation that will do whatever makes sense for their shareholders.[/

My hope as well



Obviously you haven't done the math... Let's be conservative, and say the repairs will run 30K per boat. If Lagoon had all 1000 boat repaired and paid for it, that would be 30M. They couldn't just to a select few... If I owned a 450, and found that Lagoon was beefing up bulkheads due to a design deficiency, I would NOT wait for my boat to fail, I would demand that it be repaired NOW. You'd be a fool not to get onboard. Can Lagoon absorb that kind of hit.......... where is all this money supposed to come from? Building cats is not a get rich quick scheme, but a very competitive business. The repair costs could easily exceed their overall profit margin per boat.... and that money has already been spent or paid out as dividends. Very few businesses have a steadily increasing pile of money, most run pretty close to the line.
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Old 19-07-2021, 12:48   #366
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=owly;3447683]
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Obviously you haven't done the math... Let's be conservative, and say the repairs will run 30K per boat. If Lagoon had all 1000 boat repaired and paid for it, that would be 30M. They couldn't just to a select few... If I owned a 450, and found that Lagoon was beefing up bulkheads due to a design deficiency, I would NOT wait for my boat to fail, I would demand that it be repaired NOW. You'd be a fool not to get onboard. Can Lagoon absorb that kind of hit.......... where is all this money supposed to come from? Building cats is not a get rich quick scheme, but a very competitive business. The repair costs could easily exceed their overall profit margin per boat.... and that money has already been spent or paid out as dividends. Very few businesses have a steadily increasing pile of money, most run pretty close to the line.
They wouldn't pay that much to fix them and insurance would probably be involved.
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Old 19-07-2021, 13:33   #367
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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They wouldn't pay that much to fix them and insurance would probably be involved.


I didn’t post that quote but anyways, seems as if it’s a design/engineering flaw so wouldn’t Lagoon go after the designers? Sh!t runs downhill?
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Old 19-07-2021, 14:50   #368
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Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=smj;3447715]
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Originally Posted by crayiii View Post



I didn’t post that quote but anyways, seems as if it’s a design/engineering flaw so wouldn’t Lagoon go after the designers? Sh!t runs downhill?


I think they are “in house” right?

But yes a s@&t storm for Lagoon and worse for owners. And it’s like the crappy 5 year through hulls x 1000. The market has skewed to McMansions for years and this is the fruit of its labors. And, makes me wonder about the other models of mass production “cheap yet huge” boats being sold…
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Old 19-07-2021, 15:07   #369
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=malbert73;3447773]
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I think they are “in house” right?

But yes a s@&t storm for Lagoon and worse for owners. And it’s like the crappy 5 year through hulls x 1000. The market has skewed to McMansions for years and this is the fruit of its labors. And, makes me wonder about the other models of mass production “cheap yet huge” boats being sold…
Cheap?
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Old 19-07-2021, 17:17   #370
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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I think they are “in house” right?
Naval architect of the 450: VPLP Design
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Old 19-07-2021, 22:19   #371
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Re: Broken Lagoon

Straighten Your Bent Catamaran in 8 Simple Steps

David Shih: "it was so easy in my head..."



This is from the other L450 on the hard next to Parlay.

Maybe Colin and Jamie need to setup a production line repair facility there at Linton Bay Marina

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Old 19-07-2021, 22:51   #372
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=owly;3447683]
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Originally Posted by smj View Post




Obviously you haven't done the math... Let's be conservative, and say the repairs will run 30K per boat. If Lagoon had all 1000 boat repaired and paid for it, that would be 30M. They couldn't just to a select few... If I owned a 450, and found that Lagoon was beefing up bulkheads due to a design deficiency, I would NOT wait for my boat to fail, I would demand that it be repaired NOW. You'd be a fool not to get onboard. Can Lagoon absorb that kind of hit.......... where is all this money supposed to come from? Building cats is not a get rich quick scheme, but a very competitive business. The repair costs could easily exceed their overall profit margin per boat.... and that money has already been spent or paid out as dividends. Very few businesses have a steadily increasing pile of money, most run pretty close to the line.
total capital of Lagoon is around 3,5 milion€ and Bank/supplier debt short and long-term liability +200 milion€
debt 40 milion€ for new design(2019-20) 62m€ for new worker(4year) 22mil€ extending factory space for new model
annual sale 180 mil€
All factory, mold, material, toll is under multi Collateral for secured loans. How i know this local government with France/EU money program is mostly mix Government loan guarantees program.
Good luck recive free repair from factory in name keeping good name. to guys never be customer lagoon factory
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Old 20-07-2021, 09:05   #373
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=more;3448034]
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total capital of Lagoon is around 3,5 milion€ and Bank/supplier debt short and long-term liability +200 milion€
debt 40 milion€ for new design(2019-20) 62m€ for new worker(4year) 22mil€ extending factory space for new model
annual sale 180 mil€
All factory, mold, material, toll is under multi Collateral for secured loans. How i know this local government with France/EU money program is mostly mix Government loan guarantees program.
Good luck recive free repair from factory in name keeping good name. to guys never be customer lagoon factory

This is no surprise to me.......... about what I expected. Non business people seem to think that the huge amount of money paid for equals huge profit and piles of cash in the bank... nothing could be farther from the truth I suspect. Boatyards are going to charge a LOT to do this job properly, and as the number of boats needing (or wanting) repair grows, that capital of 3,5 milion€ would vanish pretty rapidly.........That capital is working capital..... Without it Lagoon cannot make volume purchases, etc driving production costs up....... if they were able to remain in business at all. A lawsuit that ended up requiring repair would bankrupt the company........ Perhaps someone else would purchase their designs and continue manufacturing Lagoons, but they would have no liability for previously built boats.
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Old 20-07-2021, 09:09   #374
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=owly;3448299]
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This is no surprise to me.......... about what I expected. Non business people seem to think that the huge amount of money paid for equals huge profit and piles of cash in the bank... nothing could be farther from the truth I suspect. Boatyards are going to charge a LOT to do this job properly, and as the number of boats needing (or wanting) repair grows, that capital of 3,5 milion€ would vanish pretty rapidly.........That capital is working capital..... Without it Lagoon cannot make volume purchases, etc driving production costs up....... if they were able to remain in business at all. A lawsuit that ended up requiring repair would bankrupt the company........ Perhaps someone else would purchase their designs and continue manufacturing Lagoons, but they would have no liability for previously built boats.
Insurance companies will likely pay for a chunk of this except in cases like the YouTube person where an insurance company already paid for the boat. This is one reason engineering firms carry E&O insurance.

The last time I reviewed warranty terms, Lagoon and Leopard (didn't look at any other) didn't cover boats going into charter either. That's likely to be a lot of boats.
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Old 20-07-2021, 09:19   #375
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Re: Broken Lagoon

[QUOTE=owly;3448299]
Quote:
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This is no surprise to me.......... about what I expected. Non business people seem to think that the huge amount of money paid for equals huge profit and piles of cash in the bank... nothing could be farther from the truth I suspect. Boatyards are going to charge a LOT to do this job properly, and as the number of boats needing (or wanting) repair grows, that capital of 3,5 milion€ would vanish pretty rapidly.........That capital is working capital..... Without it Lagoon cannot make volume purchases, etc driving production costs up....... if they were able to remain in business at all. A lawsuit that ended up requiring repair would bankrupt the company........ Perhaps someone else would purchase their designs and continue manufacturing Lagoons, but they would have no liability for previously built boats.
I highly doubt Lagoon is ging out of business because of this. They will fix the problem quietly for a handful of owners, and call it a day.
At one point they will just stop this practice and do nothing at all but ignore these owners.

Lawsuit... good luck!
An owner can sue his dealer anytime but no one will go after the manufacturer. If they do, they won't succeed.

Knowing french mentality I am sure any lawsuit filed in France by a foreigner will take a couple of years, and in the end the frogs will win - or settle for next to nothing.
Want to file a lawsuit in the US? I wonder if Lagoon would even send a lawyer to appear in court.
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