Want To Buy: 36ft + Cruiser to live aboard and upgrade to circumnavigate

[digitalnomad]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If your wife is from the Far East, Thailand, Cambodia, Phillipines etc you will find this very hard to do if not impossible in the EU.
A French friend of mine spent years trying to get his Cambodian bride into Europe and tried many countries.. even ended up trying Tunisia as a last resort as he could then base in Sicily/Greece for any required returns to Tunisia from time to time..
You would have better luck in the UK where there's a much more liberal approach though that usually comes with 5yrs residence before citizenship and passport.

Sorry for the confusion. My wife is Spanish and I am from the UK. We got married in Gibraltar in March just before the lockdown. We saw Spain melt into complete chaos. We moved home just before the wedding so needed to change addresses and register our marriage in Spain. To date, we have not even an appointment to make these simple administration changes. So I assume that registering a boat in Spain will take a good year of waiting. With Brexit ... I would be classed as a resident of both UK and Spain. Love Portugal but to be honest I would love something a bit warmer. Even the Canary Islands (I lived there for over a year) seemed warm but the waters too cool to really enjoy.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by digitalnomad

Sorry for the confusion. My wife is Spanish and I am from the UK. We got married in Gibraltar in March just before the lockdown. We saw Spain melt into complete chaos. We moved home just before the wedding so needed to change addresses and register our marriage in Spain. To date, we have not even an appointment to make these simple administration changes. So I assume that registering a boat in Spain will take a good year of waiting. With Brexit ... I would be classed as a resident of both UK and Spain. Love Portugal but to be honest I would love something a bit warmer. Even the Canary Islands (I lived there for over a year) seemed warm but the waters too cool to really enjoy.

If you are classed as a UK resident go for the Brit reg and do the Gib run every 18mths...
Know what you mean about the water being cold.. here on the W Portuguese coast it's like swimming off B'mth beach.. B|rrrr.. that stream coming from the N is a killer.
The Algarve tho' is several degrees warmer benefiting from the outflow from the Med but gets wet in winter with Atlantic fronts..
Congrats on your recent marriage to the Lady of Spain..

[TrentePieds]

Quote: " If we stayed on shore we could live for 12k a year for accommodation, so it would be awesome to invest that 12k into a boat instead of giving that away."

Whatever makes you think that you can own and maintain a boat of the kind you cite for less that 12k per annum?

Best set out a realistic budget for OWNERSHIP costs. They are not the same as ACQUISITION costs. A simple repair like an engine replacement will set you back the equivalent of a year's rent ashore.

TrentePieds

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: " If we stayed on shore we could live for 12k a year for accommodation, so it would be awesome to invest that 12k into a boat instead of giving that away."

Whatever makes you think that you can own and maintain a boat of the kind you cite for less that 12k per annum?

Best set out a realistic budget for OWNERSHIP costs. They are not the same as ACQUISITION costs. A simple repair like an engine replacement will set you back the equivalent of a year's rent ashore.

TrentePieds

I missed that quote:
- A marina can easily run $3-8k/yr depending on where.
- Haul out at least annually for bottom pain and zincs...DIY I would add at least $1k maybe $2k depending on location.
- Sails & canvas don't live forever and a $10-15k boat likely needs new. Sails and canvas can easily add a few thousand each.
- Likewise that motor has probably seen better days, so figure a grand or two per year to keep it limping along.
- Now you could say you are anchoring out to save money...well a good anchor and chain can set you back a grand plus now you need a dingy. If you want reliable you are looking at a couple grand...and now keeping up the motor maintenance is even more critical.
- As a newbie, good chance, you are hiring out work...boat bucks ($1000) add up real quick.

This is far from an all inclusive list but the idea that you are going to buy and old junker boat and live on the cheap is not what most people think of.

This isn't to say you can live inexpensively on a boat but your idea needs a lot more fleshing out and likely it will take several years to break even if you are heavy into DIY.

[Stewie12]

The Bavaria would be my choice and register it with the small ships register with the RYA. All you need is a UK address.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by digitalnomad

My wife and I are currently looking for a boat to call home . With that in mind, we are looking at boats 36 feet and above. We would like to ask you all what advice you have on buying a boat in the current global crisis.

As we are looking to move into the boat straight away we are ready to buy immediately. So sellers are responding immediately to our inquiries and seem very eager to drop prices as much as 75%.

Here is a list of the kinds of boats we have found so far.
2001 - 2004 | Beneteau 393 - Oceanis 430 | 16k - 10k Euros
2000 - 2003 | Bavaria 340 - 50 | 9k - 30k Euros
1998 - 2002 | Jeanneau 10m - 14m | 12k - 24k Euros

I would really love your feedback on where in the world the better deals are found?

Can we actually make a deal and collect in those locations?

Should we hold off a few more months as new strains of the virus continue to upset countries and increase the levels of lockdowns (the UK as an example)?

Which boat would you recommend as a live-aboard for 2021?

At the moment, the best deals are found in places you probably cannot get to due to Covid. Normally the Rio Dulce in Guatamala has great deals on boats as do the Philippines as these are common places for people to swallow the anchor (quit sailing). The boats you listed are more charter style boats and not really the first choice for circumnavigation. If that's your long term goal, you'll be better off with an Amel, Hallberg Rassey or Oyster pedigree of boat which you won't find in the price range you listed. It's only a seller's market in places a large number of people can get to - less accessible places are still offering some good deals (kind of a catch 22)

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: " If we stayed on shore we could live for 12k a year for accommodation, so it would be awesome to invest that 12k into a boat instead of giving that away."

Whatever makes you think that you can own and maintain a boat of the kind you cite for less that 12k per annum?

Best set out a realistic budget for OWNERSHIP costs. They are not the same as ACQUISITION costs. A simple repair like an engine replacement will set you back the equivalent of a year's rent ashore.

TrentePieds

Not in Europe.. Portugal has qualified diesel mechanics that work for €16/18/hr..as for engines.. https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/...beta-28/298570

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well if your buying on that side of the pond and sailing her across (shipping would cost more than what your looking to pay for a boat) I would suggest you pay the VAT (currently 18%) in the Azores, a simple quick process and get Portuguese residency, a great country and the Algarve is a great base with several good anchorages along its 75nm or so of coastline.
If you can get UK Part 1 Registration with a family member to act as your 'agent' I would opt for that as EU reg is very "strings attached" in comparison and nipping to Gib or Tangier for a night or 3 every 18mths to reboot is no hardship unless you just want a marina queen.

This is mixed up information

Post Brexit , ie effectively now You’ll hsvecto decide on U.K. vat or EU vat

If you pay vat in the Azores you are effectively deciding on EU vat. That doesn’t now protect you from U.K. vat in the future.

Secondly if you pay EU vat. It makes absolute sense to register in the EU. Poland is straightforward as are several other countries.

U.K. part 1 wouldn’t make sense in that case

If you wish to import her into the U.K. , then pay U.K. vat and register here there. If you don’t have a residence there , you can appoint a “ ships agent “ who will receive correspondence on the ship from the registrar

eU boat reg has no more “ strings attached “ and in some cases is simpler then part 1

Note that incorrectly as boatman has opined Taking out Portuguese residency would remove your ability to access the Temporary Admission Procedure , ie the 18 month vat clock. That only applies where the “ beneficial owner “ is not “ established in the EU “

If you intend to boat in the Med /EU anything to do with the U.K. is best now avoided as it introduces uncertainly

[goboatingnow]

Note I don’t know where you getting those prices

I’ve just spent 3 months in the Med looking at boats and bought a nice Bav 36

Beneteau 393 are scarce but nice ones are going for 55-65 K euros

Bavaria 36 non charter around 38-45 k euros

These would be 2002-2005 models

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This is mixed up information

Post Brexit , ie effectively now You’ll hsvecto decide on U.K. vat or EU vat

If you pay vat in the Azores you are effectively deciding on EU vat. That doesn’t now protect you from U.K. vat in the future.

Secondly if you pay EU vat. It makes absolute sense to register in the EU. Poland is straightforward as are several other countries.

U.K. part 1 wouldn’t make sense in that case

If you wish to import her into the U.K. , then pay U.K. vat and register here there. If you don’t have a residence there , you can appoint a “ ships agent “ who will receive correspondence on the ship from the registrar

eU boat reg has no more “ strings attached “ and in some cases is simpler then part 1

Note that incorrectly as boatman has opined Taking out Portuguese residency would remove your ability to access the Temporary Admission Procedure , ie the 18 month vat clock. That only applies where the “ beneficial owner “ is not “ established in the EU “

If you intend to boat in the Med /EU anything to do with the U.K. is best now avoided as it introduces uncertainly

Will let you know in a year or two.. seeing as I am a Portuguese resident who registers his boats in the UK.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Will let you know in a year or two.. seeing as I am a Portuguese resident who registers his boats in the UK.

Up till now that had no impact. That’s not the case from 11pm tomorrow HMRC have already laid out the conditions etc.

If you were to do that after Brexit you will need to import the boat immediately it hits eU port, ie pay vat.

In theory if you pay EU vat and are resident in the EU you can of course register in the U.K. ( registration has no impact on vat ) however U.K. boats can expect more scrutiny then before ( the Portuguese being especially vigilant imho ) and hence U.K. flagging just adds hassle.

[Curmugeon]

I would not look on any of those boats to be adequate to upgrade and circumnavigate.

Start looking at real Water boats">blue water boats... yes I lived aboard for most of 25 years and circumnavigated.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Up till now that had no impact. That’s not the case from 11pm tomorrow HMRC have already laid out the conditions etc.

If you were to do that after Brexit you will need to import the boat immediately it hits eU port, ie pay vat.

In theory if you pay EU vat and are resident in the EU you can of course register in the U.K. ( registration has no impact on vat ) however U.K. boats can expect more scrutiny then before ( the Portuguese being especially vigilant imho ) and hence U.K. flagging just adds hassle.

Having experienced the hassle of registering and maintaining it on a boat in Portugal I think I'll stick with a Brit flagged boat.

[Differentroads]

My wife and I live on a 40 year old 10m (34') sailing cruiser based in Spain. I can recommend the life. 12000E a year is about our own budget for marina fees (4k per year, currently a one year contract while we sit out Covid, probably the same for our normal 4 months in winter then going into marinas once a week while cruising), hauling out every second year, ongoing repairs and improvements, and other general boat-related stuff. A boat of 10m long helps keep the marina costs down, by the way. Here they tend to charge in brackets if 8-10m, 1012m, 12-14m etc. So a boat that can be squeezed into a 8-10m berth saves many hundreds of E a year

You should be able to find a boat in good condition for 15k to 20kE in Spain. I take it you speak Spanish and understand the culture. Finding a good quality boat in your budget will take a lot of discussion and negotiation - thats how things are done here, rather than the internet being the fount of all knowledge. I've met three sailors that have done just that, one buying a well maintained 9m boat for 3500E, spending the same again and then heading off to the Carribean six months after buying the boat. It was his seventh crossing so he knows what it takes.

Expect to spend the same again, perhaps more, on improvements and repairs but this will be spread out over 3 years or more. I'm into my sixth year of refitting. Hasn't stopped me from sailing from England, across Biscay, down the Portugese coast, through the Straits, out to the Balearics and back to Andalucia.

Theres a facebook group called sailboats from 1000E that you could have a look at. The guy has a pamphlet on buying a boat to live on in the Med. Most of the boats are from Scandinavia. And the Med Sailing group on facebook is useful for what you intend too.

[Differentroads]

Oh, and make sure that you see the paperwork saying that VAT has been paid in the EU or UK. Some boats will be cheap if VAT wasn't paid but will be due if you buy it. Could be an ex-charter boat owned by a company or one from outside the EU.

There may be other taxes due on a boat too. Sea gypsies might keep one step ahead of the authorities but once resident, its much harder. And in Spain at least, the fines will be significant and imposed unilaterally, with you then having to prove that you are not due to pay them. A lengthy and expensive process that the owner of the boat next door to me had to go through. If you find a boat get a surveyor to check it and ask them about tax pitfalls too. Better yet, hire a Gestor that has relevant experience.

And avoid buying a boat only to find years of marina fees are due and you have to pay them. Ask the marina office if any fees are outstanding on a boat that you might buy. In my current marina there are half a dozen boats chained up that I could get for free or nearly so if I paid many years of marina fees owed on them. Those fees quickly add up to more thn the value of the boat.