Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I didn't pretend to know what was going on at all
I made a suggestion of what could be going on.

There was no evidence provided that they were actually pirates
All that was shown was a boat approaching and a Muppet blazing away with a shotgun.

Just because a boat comes near does not make them a pirate.

Yeah, you completely speculated. I trust that the sailboat crew had further information than is apparent in the video to support their actions. Perhaps they didn't.

So let's assume for a minute that they didn't. The guy shot a couple rounds in the air and the other boat went another direction. What harm was done by the actions of the sailboat crew?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Actually, the pirate hotspots are still the exact same. I don’t think they changed the past 100 years, maybe some have become less dangerous and others more dangerous. This is like a periodic wave, formed by gangs getting caught until others replace them.

You write that the "hotspots are the exact same. I don’t think they changed the past 100 years," and then at the end of the 2nd sentence "some have become less dangerous and others more dangerous"

You are contradicting yourself and in the end agreeing with what I wrote: "...and it subsides in one area and springs up somewhere else."

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Also, the book is just a collection of actual cases, much more about what happens and how instead of where, in which location. Then when they describe and explain what kind of defense works, it works regardless of location. The book is 100% applicable today.

Yes the book is a collection of actual cases from which I think a lot can be learned about what to do and what not to do.
GH indicated there was a map of hotspots in the book. My point was that the map is probably dated as the hotspots tend to move over time. You agreed with my point above.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Are you trying to whitewash or deny piracy on bluewater cruisers? I’m not sure, I don’t understand the agitation over a factual book? Maybe it’s too scary because it’s real?

I have no interest in whitewashing it, just the opposite, I want people to have current info, so I am pointing that some of the info being presented is long past current and I offered a current alternative, though not a very good one since it shows events for larger commercial vessels.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Edit: the noonsite link I posted works.

I did not indicate that your link didn't work, I was writing about the one GH provided and noted that it was probably dated.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

...

So let's assume for a minute that they didn't. The guy shot a couple rounds in the air and the other boat went another direction. What harm was done by the actions of the sailboat crew?

If the boats are on the high seas then 2 crews wound up afraid of each other.

If they were in territorial waters then any display or discharge of firearms puts the sailboat at risk of being detained by the local coast guard.

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We’re talking 100% legal guns here. I know the story behind that video and the guy actually defended strangers on another boat. None of the armed pirates survived. He was a hero, think about it: you see the pirates attack not you (although you’re probably next) but another boat in your flotilla and you decide to step up and protect those folks, putting yourself in harms way. It’s the definition of heroism.

Sir, have you actually ever used a gun to defend your home or your vessel? I get the emotion but until you've actually pointed a loaded gun at an intruder and were faced with the possible result it's all armchair speculation.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

Yeah, you completely speculated

Really?
Since when is asking the question speculation?
My words

Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
I must of missed something
How do they know they were pirates and not some fisherman cruising past for a look or to offer some fish in exchange for whatever

. I trust that the sailboat crew had further information than is apparent in the video to support their actions. Perhaps they didn't.

You trust some random internet dude posting a video on the internet not showing any context or proof apart from the word pirate in the tagline.
Yeah, ok.

So let's assume for a minute that they didn't. The guy shot a couple rounds in the air and the other boat went another direction. What harm was done by the actions of the sailboat crew?

As others have said, do that in territorial waters and expect a visit from the guys with guns and silver bracelets.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It's been done here a few times. With all the ingredients you list. The 2nd Amendment, Afloat. Hence the forum hypersensitivity about it.

Nonetheless, Jedi has given a pretty good overview of the issue of attacks on cruisers, together with a reading list. Have you reviewed that? Any comments on the tactics or suggestions presented in those?

oK
SECOND REQUEST FOR LINKS TO THOSE THREADS pretty please ))

No amazon here I am afraid. book stores burnt to ground by mobs of angry fishermen )
Perhaps a summary of the basic idea. Somehow I dont think this is that complicated it cant be summarized in a sentence or two.
How to defend your boat? spear gun? club? cattle prod? What?

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Really?
Since when is asking the question speculation?
My words


You trust some random internet dude posting a video on the internet not showing any context or proof apart from the word pirate in the tagline.
Yeah, ok.


As others have said, do that in territorial waters and expect a visit from the guys with guns and silver bracelets.

If the guys with big guns and metal boats were in the vicinty when I was being threatened by pirates, I would fire an unregistered gun to get thir attnetion because a jail cell for a few nights and a fine is preferable to rapid lead poisoning courtesy of a pirate!

Again this is not first world we are talking about. No coast guard there. Its just you, your preparation and them.
They sure as hell dont care about the law, and you have to play by their rules because they have the guns

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

If the guys with big guns and metal boats were in the vicinty when I was being threatened by pirates, I would fire an unregistered gun to get thir attnetion because a jail cell for a few nights and a fine is preferable to rapid lead poisoning courtesy of a pirate!

A few nights in jail and a fine you say

Try it in Indonesia as an example and it's a possible death penalty
https://www.smh.com.au/world/packer-...29-gdkl37.html
Lucky for him he only ended up spending 3 months locked up in a faeces smeared cell

Funnily enough this Muppet had fears of pirates as well yet I personally know plenty of cruisers who have been cruising these waters for decades with zero issues.

This article lends support to their claims
https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...?source=google

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Adelie

You write that the "hotspots are the exact same. I don’t think they changed the past 100 years," and then at the end of the 2nd sentence "some have become less dangerous and others more dangerous"

You are contradicting yourself and in the end agreeing with what I wrote: "...and it subsides in one area and springs up somewhere else."

No, what you say is fundamentally different. “springs up somewhere else” suggests a new location, while my point is that it is the same locations that take turns in which is the most dangerous.

So the map is correct. If it would have a rating for level of danger, then that may have changed but the locations are the same.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

oK
SECOND REQUEST FOR LINKS TO THOSE [gun/defense] THREADS pretty please

The point is - hot-button contentious issues with little relevance for cruisers aren't welcome here. So the ones that were way off-base or got stupid have been deleted.

But some remain, and are easy enough to search for with the forum search tools. Here's a basic search for "guns aboard".

Since this thread hasn't yet reached boiling point... it might be the most informative thread here on your original questions.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ixnax

Sir, have you actually ever used a gun to defend your home or your vessel? I get the emotion but until you've actually pointed a loaded gun at an intruder and were faced with the possible result it's all armchair speculation.

You seem to not know that I only post seriously. Even when I include some tongue-in-cheek comments, the base is still true.

I served in uniform (armed with Uzi submachine gun) and I have defended our boat against pirates off the coast of Venezuela, armed with shotgun.

We never had trouble with authorities, always declared everything, never attracted crime by being armed etc.

I can add this: customs officials are very good in telling what kind of people we are (profiling) and if we’re honest or not. They get trained in that. I have seen an officer who checked me in 5 times over the years with me declaring the same shotgun each time and allowing me to keep it aboard after the first time I told him it’s safely secured in a locked cabinet, while officially being supposed to come and collect it for holding during our stay, sometimes right after telling a cruiser in the line in front of me that they would come and collect their gun that afternoon. It depends on what type of gun (pump shotgun is best, handgun worst), if you have a locker for it and most of all on how they profile you.

[Flying Monkey]

What a timely discussion. Especially now.
My belief is this. The best defense against pirate attack is a fast, efficient, prepared escape. Run away, as they say!
Live to sail another day.

My reasoning and background: I have a lot of military experience. I am trained on many, many weapon systems, and I am an expert in the application of lethal force in military type situations. With this experience, I understand that me trying to use lethal force to defend stuff is a terrible idea.
Leave the stuff. Run away. Live another day.

Why? The pirates will probably be better armed. They are in a state of mind where they have justified what they are doing. If they have deadly force, they will use it. They will probably have a small, fast boat with AK47 type weapons. There is no place on a pleasure type vessel to hide from the AK47. They are probably more practiced in shooting these things. Maybe they are high in drugs, and relaxed, and can shoot straight?
Who knows, but... if they re in piracy... I would expect the most ruthless behavior, until they get what they want, which is stuff!
Let them have the stuff.

Another reason to consider is that most, sane, healthy people, even with expert training in weapons and the use of weapons, find it very hard to shoot at people, even harder to shoot to kill, and almost impossible to be calm enough to hit the target in the very rare event that you are trying to shoot to kill. Real life situations are nothing like on the movies. People shooting in these real life situations are shaking like a leaf on a tree.

So for those reasons, presevation of my life and the lives of my family and friends, the plan on my boat is to us any means necessary to leave the vessel. We have a liferaft. We have a dingy. We have life jackets. EPIRB, individual EPIRB, Indy ais.
Run away. Maybe they will give chase and capture, but I will take that chance. These people are needy, else they would not be pirates. I believe they will be satisfied with an easy day at work and go home to celebrate.

Other: no worries about legal problems and getting thrown in jail over something that will only get you killed anyway.

Other: avoid pirate infested waters.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

If the guys with big guns and metal boats were in the vicinty when I was being threatened by pirates, I would fire an unregistered gun to get thir attnetion because a jail cell for a few nights and a fine is preferable to rapid lead poisoning courtesy of a pirate!

That's armchair reasoning; if found by authorities to be a foreigner firing an undeclared weapon the likely outcome is that you lose your boat and spend some months in prison.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Flying Monkey

What a timely discussion. Especially now.
My belief is this. The best defense against pirate attack is a fast, efficient, prepared escape. Run away, as they say!
Live to sail another day.

My reasoning and background: I have a lot of military experience. I am trained on many, many weapon systems, and I am an expert in the application of lethal force in military type situations. With this experience, I understand that me trying to use lethal force to defend stuff is a terrible idea.
Leave the stuff. Run away. Live another day.

Why? The pirates will probably be better armed. They are in a state of mind where they have justified what they are doing. If they have deadly force, they will use it. They will probably have a small, fast boat with AK47 type weapons. There is no place on a pleasure type vessel to hide from the AK47. They are probably more practiced in shooting these things. Maybe they are high in drugs, and relaxed, and can shoot straight?
Who knows, but... if they re in piracy... I would expect the most ruthless behavior, until they get what they want, which is stuff!
Let them have the stuff.

Another reason to consider is that most, sane, healthy people, even with expert training in weapons and the use of weapons, find it very hard to shoot at people, even harder to shoot to kill, and almost impossible to be calm enough to hit the target in the very rare event that you are trying to shoot to kill. Real life situations are nothing like on the movies. People shooting in these real life situations are shaking like a leaf on a tree.

So for those reasons, presevation of my life and the lives of my family and friends, the plan on my boat is to us any means necessary to leave the vessel. We have a liferaft. We have a dingy. We have life jackets. EPIRB, individual EPIRB, Indy ais.
Run away. Maybe they will give chase and capture, but I will take that chance. These people are needy, else they would not be pirates. I believe they will be satisfied with an easy day at work and go home to celebrate.

Other: no worries about legal problems and getting thrown in jail over something that will only get you killed anyway.

Other: avoid pirate infested waters.

Yes, minimizing their window of opportunity is important and part of why we got away without the need for a gunfight. Our case wasn’t far off Isla Margarita in Venezuela. Many cruisers departing headed out towards their next destination (more than half were intercepted by pirates, sometimes very violently), we headed out straight away from the mainland, minimizing that window of opportunity, still got them going after us. By motorsailing at high speed and demonstrating we would resist with lethal force, they abandoned the chase, probably going to find a softer target.

In some places, like Somalia, the pirates will be in numbers and heavily armed. Not so in the Caribbean where they have rusty shotguns and worn out revolvers. The armed cruiser will be better armed there.

Avoiding isn’t always practical. No pirates attack, even those with rape and murder, stop boats from participating in the ARC. Also, to get to the Suez canal there’s only one route and that’s running the gauntlet. We had to skip visiting San Andres and Providencia because of it being impossible to avoid a pirate infested area on route to our next destination Jamaica.

So in general I agree, avoid, run.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Flying Monkey

What a timely discussion. Especially now.
My belief is this. The best defense against pirate attack is a fast, efficient, prepared escape. Run away, as they say!

I am curious how you propose to achieve this.

The preferred platform for piracy against bluewater cruising boats is the panga. Pangas are faster than sailboats and usually as fast (and more seaworthy than) dinghies. There have been isolated reports of escapes where the sailboat was able to choose a course that forced the pangas to run broadside to the waves but this approach is dependent upon wind direction and sea state.

The pirates will probably be better armed. They are in a state of mind where they have justified what they are doing. If they have deadly force, they will use it. They will probably have a small, fast boat with AK47 type weapons. There is no place on a pleasure type vessel to hide from the AK47. They are probably more practiced in shooting these things. Maybe they are high in drugs, and relaxed, and can shoot straight?

How do you know this? Have you read example reports? What you post does not match up with most descriptions of actual events by survivors. It also does not match up with most criminological assessments of the typical mindset of those performing violent crimes.