Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

I would love to hear some practical defense strategies. Firearms are illegal in most countries, but I suspect some carry anyway because when seconds count, help is only hours away!

I would characterize myself as "firearms-neutral." I go about my life unarmed by choice but understand that others may make different choices and also recognize that circumstances could lead me to change my mind.

Broadly speaking it is not possible to cruise internationally with firearms because compliance with local laws in each port is, at best, difficult, with outright prohibitions on foreigners arriving with firearms in many cases. Therefore a decision to carry firearms aboard must be made on an individual port-by-port or route-by-route basis in light of the perceived benefit of doing so and the costs and time involved in compliance. Further complicating this, there are legal and practical problems in abandoning firearms in the last port of call where they are permitted (or at sea). For example, U.S. persons who leave the USA with firearms in their possession are required to declare them to customs upon departure, and are required to bring them back when returning to the USA unless they are a licensed exporter. Laws in most other countries are similar or more restrictive.

Piracy against cruisers is a career choice born of poverty. Pirates one is likely to encounter may not have firearms at all, or if they do the firearms they have will in most cases be limited in number, of doubtful functionality, with limited ammunition, and wielded by persons who cannot afford ammunition for training. As such, a well-placed warning shot to an unoccupied portion of the hull while the attackers are still outside boarding range has considerable deterrent value as it shows that the defenders have functional weapons, sufficient ammunition, and ability. Beyond that, apply standard defensive tactics.

I would also like to discus no lethal options if there are any.

The usual advice is to harden the companionway door and hatches, arrange to be able to control propulsion and steering from below decks, and have means of radio communications available, other than VHF, usable without access to the deck. Iridium would be a good choice. Then they'll take or smash everything on deck (dinghy etc) but you'll still be alive and will still have your boat.

Where the risk is high and an area cannot be avoided, usual procedure is for cruisers to travel in groups and, in the worst cases, obtain a trustworthy local security escort.

[s/v Jedi]

I can only come up with two countries where arriving and declaring a shotgun aboard is a problem: Mexico and the USA. USA is okay when you can prove that it was bought in the USA, because they assume illegal import otherwise.

Even in strict countries you will be okay even though many will require you to give it up until your departure.

So for us, with hardware sourced in the US and with CBP documents proving this, Mexico is the problem. The legal way to handle this, is to vacuum pack it and store it underwater somewhere you can return to pick it up after you depart again. Foodsaver rolls. Don’t forget to note the coordinates

On places where I would not go today: the shallows off the coast of Nicaragua, Honduras. I would go to Roatan etc. and I also believe they have killed, arrested and jailed all the pirates that were active on the Rio Dulce so it’ll be safe enough there as well. I wouldn’t skip Panama either.

So we have Nicaragua, Honduras and I add to that St Vincent island itself, Union island and St Lucia. We still went to St Lucia and Union Island but on high alert.

We never had trouble in Bequia. People who live in Bequia don’t have much good to say about St Vincent either… just ask them if it’s safe to anchor there.

More important is to make a plan, to allow opening portholes, hatches while still preventing ingress (steel bars just like all the houses have in these places). When people tell you that it’s perfectly safe somewhere then simply ask why there are steel bars in front of every window, why there is broken glass on top of the walls around the homes etc.

On the passage from the book: yes, I believe we met those cruisers in Trinidad. Every case is very realistic.

On the book being 20 years old: so what? What changed?

[ixnax]

In Bay Area news:

Literal pirates are stealing boats out of marinas in the Bay Area, reported The Messenger on Monday — taking advantage of slow response times from police.

"CBS News Bay Area reports that thieves stole a 40-foot Sea Ray yacht from the Embarcadero Cove Marina. Steven Young, the ship’s owner, says that he spotted his stolen yacht a few days later, with the pirates still on board," reported Zachary Rogers. "Young tells CBS News that he immediately called the police but was told that without a police report, authorities couldn’t do anything. Police reportedly never showed and it wasn’t until the insurance company called them that the boat was recovered."

And by that point, the boat had been stripped of all its valuable items and instruments. It was so thoroughly trashed that the insurance company wrote it off as a loss.

A local boat owner, Michael West, said that the Oakland area has become the "Wild West" for piracy, and said, “Someone in this marina had to defend themselves with guns against the pirates. And that's where it is right now. Everybody here has a gun or knife or a sword or a stick or something, you know, to protect themselves."

Not quite as sexy as escaping a panga at sea, and of course castle laws etc. might
protect someone from a negligent homicide charge, but apparently given legal protections and the freedom to choose even gentle cruisers can be called to arms.

[Bowdrie]

A hearty Topsail Schooner with a some swivel guns loaded with grape-shot.
I thought about what Slocum did with tacks on the deck, but I guess the miscreants all wear shoes now.
Alas mates, I guess times have changed.
Mores the pity.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

So you have nothing then?

Yes, EXACTLY like you. Only I didn't pretend to know what's going on in the video better than the participants.

In South East Asian waters , as an example, local boats often approach shiney white boats for a look.
Often they'll cut across the bows so the "luck" transfers across.

As for the VHF comment, you do realise not everyone speaks murican, right?
There are over a dozen major languages spoken in South East Asia, I doubt you speak all of them?

I don't understand what languages I speak has to do with it. I wasn't there.

FWIW, while it's hard to hear over the engine noise. I don't think those on the sailboat were speaking murican, or the Queen's English, or whatever you speak there in Oz.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

I would also like to discus no lethal options if there are any.

While it won't fit on my boat, may some of you could use this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzMqMqRZCfI

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

Yes, EXACTLY like you. Only I didn't pretend to know what's going on in the video better than the participants.

I didn't pretend to know what was going on at all
I made a suggestion of what could be going on.

There was no evidence provided that they were actually pirates
All that was shown was a boat approaching and a Muppet blazing away with a shotgun.

Just because a boat comes near does not make them a pirate.

I don't understand what languages I speak has to do with it. I wasn't there

.

Well not you, but your comment call on VHF is not going to work if they don't speak the same language

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

....

I am curios to know what would happen if I started a thread titled

WHERE TO BUY AND HOW TO CONCEAL AN UNREGISTERED RAPID LEAD DEPLOYMENT SYSTEM
....

If that were the exact title somebody would flag the first post for review by the mods and if I were the first one to respond I would delete the thread.

Depending on the consensus of mods after discussion we would either undelete the thread and bump it or leave it deleted and send you a PM stating what had happened and why. In the case of this exact wording I'm betting the consensus would be to leave it deleted. Different wording, maybe different outcome.

If we decided to leave it deleted and you wanted to appeal, you could flag the PM you received about the deletion being permanent and make your case in the flag description box.

We would add this to the existing discussion and drag additional mods into the discussion for fresh eyes so it's not the same group making the same decision. Usually the deletion stands, occasionally some or all of us change our minds and we reverse ourselves.

[BG305]

This all boils down to one thing, are you trained? Unless you’re the john Wayne type like buddy in the video(not a bad way to be). The training you have is what will determine the outcome of a confrontation. Let’s just say the average SV is 42’, look up the 21’ rule in law enforcement. If you were properly trained you could in reality defend a 42’ vessel with a #2 pencil. Firearms at the end of the day are long distance weapons, so you are either John from the video or you get yourself properly trained.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

https://www.noonsite.com/report/guat...-2008-updates/

Wow. Thats sad

Could you list the places that you consider this a substantial threat today.

https://archive.org/details/piratesa.../n343/mode/2up
Preview page shows the parts of the world in this book

The noonsite link does not work and appears to be from 15yr ago.

The second link is to a book published 20yr ago. The recommendations in that book for where to avoid were probably good for 2-3yr following publication.

Piracy hotspots change over time, they attract attention and pushback from national actors such as the US or EU countries and it subsides in one area and springs up somewhere else.

This is the only current source of info I could find. Unfortunately it's probably just commercial incidents and doesn't include recreational vessels.
https://www.icc-ccs.org/piracy-repor...ive-piracy-map

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Adelie

The noonsite link does not work and appears to be from 15yr ago.

The second link is to a book published 20yr ago. The recommendations in that book for where to avoid were probably good for 2-3yr following publication.

Piracy hotspots change over time, they attract attention and pushback from national actors such as the US or EU countries and it subsides in one area and springs up somewhere else.

This is the only current source of info I could find. Unfortunately it's probably just commercial incidents and doesn't include recreational vessels.
https://www.icc-ccs.org/piracy-repor...ive-piracy-map

Actually, the pirate hotspots are still the exact same. I don’t think they changed the past 100 years, maybe some have become less dangerous and others more dangerous. This is like a periodic wave, formed by gangs getting caught until others replace them.

Also, the book is just a collection of actual cases, much more about what happens and how instead of where, in which location. Then when they describe and explain what kind of defense works, it works regardless of location. The book is 100% applicable today.

Are you trying to whitewash or deny piracy on bluewater cruisers? I’m not sure, I don’t understand the agitation over a factual book? Maybe it’s too scary because it’s real?

Edit: the noonsite link I posted works.

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by BG305

This all boils down to one thing, are you trained? Unless you’re the john Wayne type like buddy in the video(not a bad way to be). The training you have is what will determine the outcome of a confrontation. Let’s just say the average SV is 42’, look up the 21’ rule in law enforcement. If you were properly trained you could in reality defend a 42’ vessel with a #2 pencil. Firearms at the end of the day are long distance weapons, so you are either John from the video or you get yourself properly trained.

Bingo. Frankly, only a fool would stand up on a boat dancing about with a pump action 12 guage firing here and there and expect not to die shortly. If that was your only defense and the threat was credible, as is it was evidently not from the video, you'd be wise to keep your minimal advantage secret. The helm seat heroes here can believe what they want but some of us have used guns in self defense on the land and would never choose to have one aboard traveling between nations.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ixnax

Bingo. Frankly, only a fool would stand up on a boat dancing about with a pump action 12 guage firing here and there and expect not to die shortly. If that was your only defense and the threat was credible, as is it was evidently not from the video, you'd be wise to keep your minimal advantage secret. The helm seat heroes here can believe what they want but some of us have used guns in self defense on the land and would never choose to have one aboard traveling between nations.

We’re talking 100% legal guns here. I know the story behind that video and the guy actually defended strangers on another boat. None of the armed pirates survived. He was a hero, think about it: you see the pirates attack not you (although you’re probably next) but another boat in your flotilla and you decide to step up and protect those folks, putting yourself in harms way. It’s the definition of heroism.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Actually, the pirate hotspots are still the exact same.

Hmm. I believe that at the time of the book's publication, Los Roques were rather tame and on many cruisers' itineraries.

I did order a copy of the book but do believe many things have changed. The offshore communication infrastructure we have today is much different, for example -- both in the immediate sense and in how information is disseminated. The legal climate has changed somewhat. Cruising boats are somewhat larger and include a greater percentage of cats.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Hmm. I believe that at the time of the book's publication, Los Roques were rather tame and on many cruisers' itineraries.

I did order a copy of the book but do believe many things have changed. The offshore communication infrastructure we have today is much different, for example -- both in the immediate sense and in how information is disseminated. The legal climate has changed somewhat. Cruising boats are somewhat larger and include a greater percentage of cats.

Oh yes, many things have changed, but none that result in a different outcome when the pirates come at you. I mean, you may be able to get the word out, but it will be all over long before any response can arrive.

911 doesn’t work out there, nobody is coming, it’s up to you. Not just for security, it’s the same for fire and for medical emergencies. You need to be prepared for it all.