Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I must of missed something
How do they know they were pirates and not some fisherman cruising past for a look or to offer some fish in exchange for whatever?

I have boats come up on me like that regularly
I'd be locked up quick smart if I pulled a shotgun on them and rightly so

Yes, that's probably it, just trying to sell some fish. And the gentleman was simply telling him "No, thanks. freezer's full." VHF was probably broken.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

snip...(you know about the declining fertility rate and by the end of the century we only have half the population we have now, right?) ...snip

I haven't heard that stat, but I love your optimism. Sadly (or not), I won't be around then to appreciate it.

[Bycrick]

If I’m approached at noon in a crowded anchorage, I’m more than likely going to assume that they want to sell me something. If I’m approached by a panga 75 miles offshore, I’m liable to be a lot less trusting. Particularly at night. You, of course, are free to create imaginary or hypothetical cases that prove whatever you wish.

[Montanan]

Angry mobs of fisherman . . .

Nota bene: Stay far away from

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Angry mobs of fisherman . . .

Nota bene: Stay far away from

Well Im glad someone has a sense of humor )

I am curios to know what would happen if I started a thread titled

WHERE TO BUY AND HOW TO CONCEAL AN UNREGISTERED RAPID LEAD DEPLOYMENT SYSTEM

Of course I would never think of doind such a thing. I would be asking for a friend, but I have curiously nervous friends. They dont like third world countries where bad sh$t happens and human life is cheap.

In their first world home countries, where they have licsensed lead deployment systems, they do not feel the need to carry or conceal on water.

They argue that they know what they are doing, and unless said third world country had a boat sized airport scanner at the dock, no one would ever find anything.

Of course I would never post such a thread, given the uproar thus far, but since this thread has traversed from the sublime to the ridiculous with all t he subtlety of a jibing boom to the head , these thoughts persist

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exactly. If you are serious then buy and read the book I linked to. It describes 40 real cases of piracy on bluewater cruisers, exactly what we’re talking about and it describes what works and what not.

People posting that it doesn’t happen simply have the facts against them as the book describes 40 cases and we have lost a number of friends to pirates and none of their deaths are in the book. Also, that wasn’t just in Venezuela. It happens offshore anywhere near Venezuela, Nicaragua, Honduras and even Guatemala. A friend was killed and his wife severely wounded and left for dead while anchored on the Rio Dulce, not 100 yards from a marina. Others were killed in Panama (by a Spanish so called “cruiser” who killed two incl. our friend) and also a Dutch couple at San Andres.

When cruisers rally’s go through the area, they go in a flotilla and get a Navy escort. Now, not decades ago.

The naive reactions are fine for cruisers who stay in EU or US waters, but when you venture out, you will be exposed to piracy, you can not always avoid it and if you don’t have a plan (which is mandatory and regularly trained for by commercial shipping) then you have a big chance you won’t survive it. The chance may be small but we lost 4 friends in 20 years, know about much more cases of people we didn’t know personally, plus many, many friends who were not harmed but lost everything. Plus, not to forget, we were chased by pirates ourselves.

Read the book.

https://www.noonsite.com/report/guat...-2008-updates/

Wow. Thats sad

Could you list the places that you consider this a substantial threat today.

https://archive.org/details/piratesa.../n343/mode/2up
Preview page shows the parts of the world in this book

[Montanan]

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Don't forget to raise your Gin Flag so as to be considered the social center of the anchorage [24/7] and you will become boarded by everyone but pirates. Yeah, one does occasionally have to contend with the belligerent drunk.

The gin flag is the ultimate courtesy flag.

Just remember the universal occupancy rule for yachts:

6 for drinks,
4 for dinner,
2 to sleep over.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

Wow - thought there was a simple request to kill this thread and now we have three pages of babbling. The report link was nice though nearly all of these are from the deep Caribbean near Venezuelan waters that we know are trouble.

Who is the “we” that know the deep Caribbean is trouble? Yes, most of us who have been cruisers for awhile know that part of the Caribbean along with parts of St Lucia have higher crime rates than further north, but since you have no idea who “we” is, you have know way of what they are aware of and what they are not aware of. There is a very wide range of experience levels on this site and nobody asking a question that seems important to them deserves to be shouted down or discredited.

I think a request to “kill a thread” is a pretty absurd thing to do unless the thread has devolved into personal attacks or politics or religion. If you don’t like the subject being discussed and feel the urge to ask that the thread be killed, I suggest you instead just don’t click on it again. If you’re at a cocktail party and overhear a bit of a conversation that you think is “unnecessary” or even wrong, do you move on and spend your time conversing with other people with whom you share similar interests or do you stop and tell the first group that subject has already been discussed and they should talk about something else instead? Or maybe the next time you’re invited to a cocktail party at that home, you’ll be “busy?” Then, there’s the anti gun crowd who seem to want to make this about guns even though nobody has advocated using guns and the OP specifically mentioned he was interested in methods other than guns to defend his boat and himself. Also, if you think there is no threat so this discussion is “unnecessary,” why keep harping on that instead of just mentioning it once and moving on, or simply don’t click on this thread again since you think it’s not a serious issue worthy of worry or has already been discussed too much elsewhere? No doubt the risk of any one of us being attacked at sea is extremely slim but it does occasionally happen and if even though, like myself, you don’t think it’s anything worth worrying about, the OP has a perfectly valid right to initiate this discussion and other members who have something constructive to offer have a right to try to answer the OP’s question without being ridiculed or their right to express themselves on this subject shut down because some other posters don’t like this subject or have had enough of it in other threads.

[davil]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

I would love to hear some practical defense strategies.

I would also like to discuss no lethal options if there are any.

==============================

went over the original post, two very clear questions.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

WHERE TO BUY AND HOW TO CONCEAL AN UNREGISTERED RAPID LEAD DEPLOYMENT SYSTEM

Of course I would never think of doind such a thing. I would be asking for a friend, but I have curiously nervous friends. They dont like third world countries where bad sh$t happens and human life is cheap.

In their first world home countries, where they have licsensed lead deployment systems, they do not feel the need to carry or conceal on water.

They argue that they know what they are doing, and unless said third world country had a boat sized airport scanner at the dock, no one would ever find anything.

Of course I would never post such a thread...

It's been done here a few times. With all the ingredients you list. The 2nd Amendment, Afloat. Hence the forum hypersensitivity about it.

With an added helping of "Why can't I say anything I want, anywhere?".

Good times.


Nonetheless, Jedi has given a pretty good overview of the issue of attacks on cruisers, together with a reading list. Have you reviewed that? Any comments on the tactics or suggestions presented in those?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

Yes, that's probably it, just trying to sell some fish. And the gentleman was simply telling him "No, thanks. freezer's full." VHF was probably broken.

So you have nothing then?

In South East Asian waters , as an example, local boats often approach shiney white boats for a look.
Often they'll cut across the bows so the "luck" transfers across.

As for the VHF comment, you do realise not everyone speaks murican, right?
There are over a dozen major languages spoken in South East Asia, I doubt you speak all of them?

[Exile]

Re: the OP's questions about non-lethal, practical, and lawful measures, I personally like high-powered LED's lighting up the decks & surrounding waters that are wired to a single switch by a bunk. A canned airhorn nearby wouldn't hurt either. Could very well be a better solution than a firearm (for several reasons), at least while at anchor.

As for threats from other boats while underway, that's a tougher nut to crack. Especially for a slow moving sailboat. But it's also (arguably) much less likely.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It's been done here a few times. With all the ingredients you list. The 2nd Amendment, Afloat. Hence the forum hypersensitivity about it.

With an added helping of "Why can't I say anything I want, anywhere?".

Good times.

* * *

Not sure what any of this means, but to be clear the US Const's 2nd Amendment has no application to US citizens sailing in foreign waters, and therefore no relevance to the thread topic. The laws of the country you're visiting as a guest control, and no amount of licensing, training, etc. someone may have obtained elsewhere overrides local firearm laws. Different story for US flagged vessels sailing in int'l waters.

I thought this was all pretty much common knowledge by this point on these threads but perhaps not.

Also worth noting is some countries may imprison you/take your boat, etc. if you show up with firearms even if declared. Mexico is the example that immediately comes to mind. Noonsite should be consulted for potential others.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Statistics show how vanishingly rare attacks on cruisers are, and how easy it is to avoid problem areas. Orca-bites are far more common.

And that's the first and best answer right there - avoid the problem areas. If you must move through dangerous seas - then choose a route that avoids traffic as much as possible.

Can a solo sailor, a middle-aged couple, even a boatload of jocks, successfully defend the average offshore cruising yacht against attack from determined/desperate and armed people?

I'm thinking not.

Most of these pirates are out of shape, in some cases malnourished, uneducated, armed with old weapons, and so they aren't exactly elite military forces either.

This forum often claims guns don't work, yet in most cases, the pirates are carrying guns. Why is that? Well it's an issue of expectations.

I spent a lifetime working for both military and law enforcement before going into sailing. Here's the reality - practically speaking, guns are about 99% of the time used for their deterrence/threat value, only about 1% for their actual firepower value. If I was under threat from pirates, and armed, rather than relying on my aim on a moving boat, I would first fire warning shots to keep them away. Unless they are really determined, they will likely back off and look for an easier target. A shotgun is good for this, and some double as flare guns.

Law-enforcement experts have been telling us for years what the best courses of action are: avoid danger,

Agreed.

and don't resist when it happens.

It's situationally dependent, but generally I don't agree. In fact, this is the anniversary of 9/11, an event that happened because 3 out of the 4 hijacked planes didn't offer resistance.

I recommend at a minimum making a show of force, all hands on deck, and if you don't have weapons then everyone picks up something that looks like a weapon. Appear as if you are willing to slug it out instead of folding over. Same strategy the puffer fish and so many other animals use in the animal kingdom. Predators want easy prey, they don't want to actually fight it out.

The OP asked for non lethal options. One good non lethal option is to have a couple of replica or dummy weapons on board. They are not illegal in most places, and often can offer the same deterrence as a real weapon.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For the OP: discussing this normally is impossible on this forum. Luckily there is a very good book: Pirates Aboard!: Forty Cases of Piracy Today and What Bluewater Cruisers Can Do About It
https://www.amazon.com/Pirates-Aboar.../dp/1574091654

That book was first published 20 years ago and has not been revised.

Much has changed since then.