Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[Shanachie]

Pulling out random horror stories proves nothing.


I could go through a month's worth of big-city newspapers and find enough stories to scare you off driving and even walking down the street. Stuff happens, but only occasionally, and to a miniscule number of people.


People who have Eastwood-esque fantasies about using a gun to defend home and family are only creating more problems for themselves.


Fact: There are three times as many suicides in the U.S. as murders, and many are accomplished with guns kept in the home for self-defense.


Fact: Many soldiers in combat never fire their weapons. How are you, an overweight, middle-aged suburbanite, going to do in a showdown with a criminal or psycho coming after you?


Fact: Many people charged with murder are not hard-core criminals. They are everyday people who went for a gun in a fit of anger and made a bad decision. Are you certain you're not going to overreact?


I'll pull out one random horror story from my days as a newspaper reporter.


A guy goes to sleep one night and is awakened by someone trying to open the back door of the house. Thinking it was a burglar, he grabbed the gun he kept by his bed, went to the door and fired a couple of shots through the door.


On the other side was his daughter, fumbling for her keys. She had decided to surprise her parents by coming home from college for the weekend.

[CarlF]

The error is the belief that things are getting worse. People have been murdered at sea for literally thousands of years. Piracy today is a much smaller problem than during the 250 year time of the Barbery Pirates when approximarely 8500 Europeans and Americans per year were captured at sea and killed or sold into slavery. George Washington ordered the first four Frigates for the new US Navy to try to wipe out the pirates.

Today piracy is very rare and restricted to just a few small dangerous parts of the world where naive 1st world tourists in expensive boats are asking for trouble traveling alone. Just like you would if you wandered around on LAND in these countries without a knowlegable local or security escort.

In most of the world, a small local boat approaching you is probably trying to sell you some fish.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Your premise is flawed; the world is not more dangerous today. And your solution has been well discussed. Most actual world cruisers find guns to be useless and bothersome tools.

I still think my response is both appropriate and succinct. I was not trying to be insulting, but the OP’s claim is simply wrong. There is no evidence I am aware of that supports the claim that “The world is becoming increasingly violent and attacks on boats more common.”

Meanwhile, both LE and Exile have outlined the clear reasons why most experienced cruisers eschew guns as a useful means of protection. There are a litany of problems which make their effectiveness dubious in most situations. And there are far better ways to keep yourself safe. Added to this the fact that there are significant challenges international travellers face when they want to carry firearms.

As I said, the end result is that for most cruisers (Jedi being our local exception), guns are both useless, and not worth the bureauocratic bother.

[NorthCoastJoe]

Super easy: Buy a metal boat, run some 120 volt or 220 volt AC through bare wire lifelines. Black wire to lifelines and white wire to the hull.

If you're a cannibal you also get some fresh cooked human meat when the attack comes.

It's the second time this week I heard about the big defense worry. WOW I can think of several places I worked as a ff/medic that most people would never walk into in some cities, and I never had a problem there. In or out of uniform.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

In a movie maybe, and I would watch it!

But no, not likely in real life. A couple kids in a RIB or a tin boat might be deterred by a gun-wielding cruiser... but not the sort of multi-person, fast-boat attack (aka pirates, angry mobs of fishermen) that might occur in the noted trouble spots.

Real life means looking at statistics and incident reports, not speculation. See my link above to the Carib Security & Safety Net above before you reach a conclusion about the types of incidents which may or may not be deterred.

Again, I reached my personal decision based on the risks posed from the authorities in other countries (mostly), and not because I don't think a firearm could be an effective survival tool (in proper hands that is). If you're inexperienced, fearful, or philosophically opposed to firearms then I would highly recommend not having any onboard. Otherwise I'm not so quick to judge other sailors' decisionmaking, but do find it useful to read other opinions on the matter.

[sailorboy1]

I think for the pretty thief just screaming and yelling at them has as much chance of working as having a gun etc. They are most likely just as scared of you and once are found out will flee.

For serious prepared thieves, putting up a battle is most likely to result it them killing you. There is little I feel a cruiser could do to win aganist an armed group of pirates. Of course that is unlikely as an armed group of pirates has little interest in a cruising boat as them is little of value for them.

[Simi 60]

Pretty much every instance I've ever read of, where a vessel has been boarded with multiple bad guys looking to steal stuff
It's always the owner who comes out swinging or with a gun that ends up beaten to a pulp or dead.

[Exile]

Prior threads have suggested high powered spreader lights and maybe even sirens, activated by a single switch beside a bunk. Sounds common sensical, especially if another cruiser in the anchorage responds with a gun!

[BobFord]

I can only agree that whist guns could be a 'last resort ' , I mean life and death , they can also be a great opportunity for 'officials', to secure baksheesh. In my 2x aro' I found that the legal pirates ,that administer the Suez Canal , to be the outstanding pirates. If entering many muslim countries do be prepared to pay baksheesh. e.g. $US100, bottle of Johnny-- It is often cheaper than legal fees payable to enter e.g.UK, USA---.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Real life means looking at statistics and incident reports, not speculation. See my link above to the Carib Security & Safety Net above before you reach a conclusion about the types of incidents which may or may not be deterred.

Ok, report opened. Starting from most recent:

• 3096 – 2023-09-07 – Curaçao - thefts from unlocked and unattended boat
• 3093 – 2023-09-07 – Trinidad and Tobago - dinghy theft while owners slept
• 3092 – 2023-09-01 – Curaçao - dinghy theft while owners slept
• 3090 – 2023-09-01 – Curaçao - ditto.

The majority of reports are like that...thefts, preventable maybe if owners were present and had stood watch. Or better locks, and maybe alarms.

Let's just read the reports of assaults and boardings then:

• 3072 – 2023-08-02 – Trinidad and Tobago - solo sailor invites "fisherman" and hooker aboard for drinks, gets clobbered and robbed
• 3089 – 2023-08-16 – Trinidad and Tobago - single person boards boat while owner below, owner chases intruder away (no gun)
• 3086 – 2023-05-19 – Colombia- several men armed with automatic weapons arrived in an open boat with 40HP outboard and boarded. Robbery and brief abduction
• 3047 – 2023-07-07 – Venezuela - fishing boat chases yacht, which manages to outrun it

So Carribean, from about begining of July . FOUR assaults/boardings. - please identify which cases where a cruiser with a gun would have positively altered the outcome.

Since "Real life means looking at statistics and incident reports, not speculation."... I've looked. Not seeing. You've kind of boosted my confidence in my speculation. Not that it was totally unfounded speculation; common sense goes a long way. Thanks, I guess.

Again, I reached my personal decision based on the risks posed from the authorities in other countries (mostly), and not because I don't think a firearm could be an effective survival tool (in proper hands that is). If you're inexperienced, fearful, or philosophically opposed to firearms then I would highly recommend not having any onboard. Otherwise I'm not so quick to judge other sailors' decisionmaking, but do find it useful to read other opinions on the matter.

The underlying hubris about the effectiveness of a firearm in average hands and typical (reported) situations is precisely why guns remains a hot-button issue on an international forum.

[Exile]

My opinions are the opposite of hubris. I would never condone firearms onboard in "average hands." Only experienced and trained hands, but even then I find the potential benefits outweighed by the risks as discussed. I thought I had been quite clear on that. Having said that, however, I don't presume to know what's best for others. That's for sailors to decide on their own, with civil discussions such as this hopefully leaving them better informed.

[GreenWave]

Wow - thought there was a simple request to kill this thread and now we have three pages of babbling. The report link was nice though nearly all of these are from the deep Caribbean near Venezuelan waters that we know are trouble.

[PippaB]

Since some people want the evidence:

Two arrested and boat seized in the Bahamas - Guns and failure to clear Customs

Cruise ship passenger arrested for gun possession - Cayman Islands

Another arrest for guns aboard in the Bahamas

Trinidad arrests sailor for undeclared guns

Mexicans arrest sailor for guns aboard

Americans arrest sailor for unregistered guns

Then of course there's the recent case in which the Spanish arrested someone for firing at orcas, but was that gun arrest or an environmental arrest (or both)?

The very real truth is there are far too few cases for objective data analysis. How many cases have there been when guns (or any other semi-violent deterrent for that matter) made the outcome better for cruisers? How many where they made it worse? How many resulted in spending time in a foreign jail? Without some factual analysis this conversation is just a lot of very subjective opinion.

Even the non-gun semi-violent deterrents are questionable. Bear spray? That can get you into as much legal trouble some places as guns.

The one thing I (opinion) think you can do successfully is make yourself the least attractive target. Don't openly display wealth. The lights and noise approach may be useful. Lock up the dinghy. We all take the path of least resistance, even the bad guys.

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by PippaB

We all take the path of least resistance, even the bad guys.

Funny and true observation.


The padlocks used on 99.9 percent of the boats I've seen can be cut with a hacksaw in 2 minutes. Yet they seem to deter most lazy thieves.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Funny and true observation.


The padlocks used on 99.9 percent of the boats I've seen can be cut with a hacksaw in 2 minutes. Yet they seem to deter most lazy thieves.

They keep the honest thieves out