Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You questioned “angry mobs of fishermen”. I showed them to you, now, instead of admitting they are there and killing, you move and counter ask. Doesn’t work for me.

ONE story, not in a common cruising ground, and apparently not even involving cruisers, is probably not a good reason for the average CF member to lie worried and sleepless in their bunks, cuddling their AR-15s with their free hand.

Awareness, statistics and sensible avoidance are far better defense strategies than survivalist fantasies of being able to mount any sort of credible defense of our watertoys.

[leecea]

I felt this was interesting reading: https://www.un.org/en/un75/new-era-c...t-and-violence

Unrelated to sailing and certainly not supporting any point of view - just trying to find more about the overall issue of how the world is doing.

[Turtle Blues]

As usual Jedi comes forth with deep factual information.
I feel a need to retract my glib comment.
Thanks for the link, Outlaw Ocean seems to be a project worth viewing and supporting.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You questioned “angry mobs of fishermen”. I showed them to you, now, instead of admitting they are there and killing, you move and counter ask. Doesn’t work for me.

To be fair he did not question at all the veracity of your story, all he did was ask about why it was relevant to cruisers. I read the story, sorry it hasn’t frightened me even a little. It’s not relevant to my world cruising experience or plans.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by PNWSalmon

Angry mobs of fishermen ????

Well if they catch you illegally poaching fish they get pretty irate. Taking money out of their pocket or food out of the mouths of their kids kinda does that.

But a lot of folks ca't grasp that they need permits to fish in other country's waters just like they need permits in their own country.

[SailingHarmonie]

I am going to seriously, and strongly, suggest that the forum create a new folder called, Self defense, guns, weapons, crime.

That way I don’t have to block this threads individually.

[GreenHeaven]

Oh Boy!
Looks like I tripped a landmine with this one

Ooooooooooooooopppssss

Nevermind

I have always wondered how you could defend a boat from boarding
Thats all

delete the angry fisherman example and eveyone take a large chill pill


links to old discussions would be most appreciated
search shows up car commercials and anchor ads

perhaps hurl SS anchor at invaders?

[Exile]

The OP asked about the best way of defending one's boat with an emphasis on international and foreign waters. He/she acknowledged the illegality in most countries and therefore potential impracticality of firearms, and specifically asked about non-lethal options. While I agree this has already been done and done on this forum and a search through the archives would be productive (or not ), it's not the OP's question but rather some of the responses that are potentially problematic to the civility of the discussion and forum rules.

Fwiw, it was actually several seasoned international delivery skippers in previous threads -- all with significant firearms backgrounds -- who pointed out the practical problems of having firearms onboard. In their view, and after doing their own risk-benefit analysis, it was not worth it for them. I found their logic -- based on their personal backgrounds and actual experience -- compelling for my own personal decisionmaking on the issue, but I respect others. Ironically, if these threads had succumbed to the efforts of those to shut them down with inflammatory ridicule, shaming and sarcasm, I may likely not have reached the decision I did to not have firearms onboard. Logic, civility, and the credibility of the speaker more often than not leads to sound decisionmaking, not personal, fact-deficient emotions and bias. The amount of risk in different cruising waters is thus directly relevant.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by leecea

I felt this was interesting reading: https://www.un.org/en/un75/new-era-c...t-and-violence

Unrelated to sailing and certainly not supporting any point of view - just trying to find more about the overall issue of how the world is doing.

It's important to be aware, because there are troubling developments in the world, but equally important to keep things in perspective.

Eg the above UN report states that half a million die each year globally from crime. Compare with the 8 million who died last year from tobacco-caused illness. Or the 1.35 million who died in vehicle accidents.

US deaths in boating 2022: 636. No mention of pirates.

If anyone on this thread is genuinely concerned about boating safety: do you always wear your PFD, and do you drink underway? These factors are what's gonna kill ya, not pi-rates.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Exile

The OP asked about the best way of defending one's boat with an emphasis on international and foreign waters. He/she acknowledged the illegality in most countries and therefore potential impracticality of firearms, and specifically asked about non-lethal options. While I agree this has already been done and done on this forum and a search through the archives would be productive (or not ), it's not the OP's question but rather some of the responses that are potentially problematic to the civility of the discussion and forum rules.

Fwiw, it was actually several seasoned international delivery skippers in previous threads -- all with significant firearms backgrounds -- who pointed out the practical problems of having firearms onboard. In their view, and after doing their own risk-benefit analysis, it was not worth it for them. I found their logic -- based on their personal backgrounds and actual experience -- compelling for my own personal decisionmaking on the issue, but I respect others. Ironically, if these threads had succumbed to the efforts of those to shut them down with inflammatory ridicule, shaming and sarcasm, I may likely not have reached the decision I did to not have firearms onboard. Logic, civility, and the credibility of the speaker more often than not leads to sound decisionmaking, not personal, fact-deficient emotions and bias. The amount of risk in different cruising waters is thus directly relevant.

Thank you yes!

I acknowledge this is exceedingly rare. No pirates in Florida. But north Africa, Red sea, West Africa is on the charts and while I know things have changed, it is a risk.

As I mentioned, friend of a friend dissapeared there
there are stories of boatws being boarded by fishemen who approach on the premise of selling fish. They put the crew in the liferaft, set them afloat and strip the boat. Those are the lucky ones

So, in my ignorance, admittedly, I thought I would ask how you might defend against at worst worst case scenario like this

I have a thick skin so go ahead and blast

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

I have a thick skin so go ahead and blast

No blast required.

1 - My main objection, and I suspect that of many others here is this:

This is a serious problem and it deserves to be discussed in the same way life saving equipment and safety equipment. imo laws regulating firearms are designed for land based populaces for obvious reasons. The ocean is utterly different.

No, it isn't. Statistics show how vanishingly rare attacks on cruisers are, and how easy it is to avoid problem areas. Orca-bites are far more common.

And it's an issue that yields easily to common sense. Can a solo sailor, a middle-aged couple, even a boatload of jocks, successfully defend the average offshore cruising yacht against attack from determined/desperate and armed people?

I'm thinking not. Law-enforcement experts have been telling us for years what the best courses of action are: avoid danger, and don't resist when it happens.

2 - guns are a hot-button topic, full-stop.


Now, Steve Martin had some great advice re crime. If you're being mugged, throw up on your money. So maybe, if a boat is being boarded, a well-timed diarrhea attack?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It's important to be aware, because there are troubling developments in the world, but equally important to keep things in perspective.

Eg the above UN report states that half a million die each year globally from crime. Compare with the 8 million who died last year from tobacco-caused illness. Or the 1.35 million who died in vehicle accidents.

US deaths in boating 2022: 636. No mention of pirates.

If anyone on this thread is genuinely concerned about boating safety: do you always wear your PFD, and do you drink underway? These factors are what's gonna kill ya, not pi-rates.

I'm not aware of a piracy problem in US waters but that's obviously not what this thread is about. The USCG stats do (predictably) show a disproportionate number of accidents and injuries from intoxication, but I don't think it's common amongst cruisers (we have enough trouble making our boats work sober!). Maybe if you're confronting pirates after having driven your car to the marina, and operating your boat while drunk, smoking, and not wearing your pfd??

Maybe not the most logical analogy, but your larger point about a low risk of being pirated is well taken and already widely agreed upon. I think the closer analogy (which you dismiss) is safety equipment onboard, most notably the life raft. Like an act of piracy, a small risk of actually needing but potentially large benefit. The big difference is there are few if any downsides to fitting your boat with a life raft, whereas having firearms onboard presents a lot of risks with the authorities in most parts of the world (even in some US states). So the risk-benefit analysis is significantly different.

Meanwhile, piracy in and around Somalia and the Red Sea has significantly declined, with many more cruisers transiting these days. There have been many reported incidents throughout the Caribbean, more so in the islands closer to Venezuela. So overall, I'm not sure if the risks to int'l cruisers have increased or not as the OP asserts. As you point out, it probably more often than not depends where you go.

https://safetyandsecuritynet.org

[Giro]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I'm sorry, but let's ignore this thread. It's been discussed a thousand times and will be just a repercussion and stress for the moderators.

If you want, just use the search function in the forum, and you have endless hours of reading material.

None of us should decide what posts should be ignored and what posts should not be ignored. Perhaps it is because I live in the USA, where freedom of speech is still allowed, that I feel the way do. Freedom of speech is still allowed here, currently, at least.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

* * *

And it's an issue that yields easily to common sense. Can a solo sailor, a middle-aged couple, even a boatload of jocks, successfully defend the average offshore cruising yacht against attack from determined/desperate and armed people?

Yes. Likely through mere deterrence since such a defense would not be expected. But your chances are much higher if you have firearms training and experience. Otherwise, there's a decent chance you will be making your firearm available to the bad guys. But the better question is what happens next in a country where not only is your firearm illegal, but your use of it (justified or not) could result in your imprisonment and loss of your boat?


2 - guns are a hot-button topic, full-stop.

Only if thread participants make it so, and guns were only a part of a larger thread topic presented by the OP. There are other options, including as you say the avoidance of dangerous areas (if possible). Let's face it, it can hardly be a black/white issue if you and I have reached the same conclusions!! (albeit for different reasons)

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Yes.

In a movie maybe, and I would watch it!

But no, not likely in real life. A couple kids in a RIB or a tin boat might be deterred by a gun-wielding cruiser... but not the sort of multi-person, fast-boat attack (aka pirates, angry mobs of fishermen) that might occur in the noted trouble spots.