Defending your boat (pirates, angry mobs of fisherman etc)

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Any gun range or firearms instructor can set you up with life-sized silhouettes to shoot. That is how law enforcement throughout the world are trained. Good instructors spend a great deal of time on the moral, legal, and psychosocial aspects of self-defense and make sure their students have thought through these matters ahead of time so that they don't have to work them out on the fly in an emergency. Books have been written.


I guess. Sort of like the tyranny of command -- some people can never learn to relax. Others adapt. It is possible to be responsible without having to think about it the whole time. I can think of countless people who have spent a lifetime with firearms in their house without having it affect their inner peace.


Depends what you're trying to achieve. A Mossberg 500 is about 24" long disassembled IIRC, a little under twice that assembled. You can put it in its case and stash it under the edge of the mattress in your v-berth, or make a special locker for it somewhere that can be sealed for customs etc. Most people who use firearms for self-defense have the ability to store them in varying levels of security and readiness depending on the threat environment they perceive around them.


You can run a cable lock through the action if you're concerned about unauthorized use, and run a cable lock through the action and a hardpoint on the boat if you are concerned about unauthorized removal.



There are various effective approaches to all this. Security plus access are covered in most training curricula. There are marinized noncorrosive versions of the Mossberg 500 and other typical self-defense shotguns. Modern self-defense oriented firearms rarely jam and can be cleared quickly when they do, pump shotguns especially so.

Well, that's the tradeoff in cruising in general, right? To sail a boat safely you have to get good, be responsible, pay attention to the weather and seas and other boats, anchor safely, fix the furler when it jams, deal with customs and immigration, and have a certain amount of navigational skill. You're never really, truly off watch. Over time it becomes second nature.


I guess the tl;dr of all this is that the concerns you raise are exactly the sorts of things that make training and mentorship important.

great response. Thank you
IM a little confused about pump shotguns. The long barrel 12 guage and 20guage I used for hunting with my Father in youth, and clay pidgeons were throated to keep the shot from spreading. A short barreled pump I presume is not and designed for close quarters?
Why is this the weapon of choice? I assume because you dont know if the fishermen are bringing catch of the day or piracy until they are at close quarters?
It would seem a rifle would be better for accuracy ar range, and a handgun with a larger clip for more rapid firing at close quarters. Also easier to conceal.

Then there is the question, of where is the line in the sand?
They arrive. they talk, but somethings not right.
you cant just blast em. If the board, they have crossed the line.
but what if they are just threatening but not attacking...
Where is that defining moment when the you define the moment, or it defines you? Where is the that line in the sand?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

great response. Thank you
IM a little confused about pump shotguns. The long barrel 12 guage and 20guage I used for hunting with my Father in youth, and clay pidgeons were throated to keep the shot from spreading.

That's called a choke. They come in various grades, extra full, full, improved, modified, probably others. It is important for the reason you state. A full choke allows greater range but requires better aim since the pattern is smaller.

A short barreled pump I presume is not and designed for close quarters?

Correct. The ones for law enforcement and similar uses typically have cylinder bore (no choke) or maybe modified. They are commonly used with slug ammunition, which does not benefit from a choke as it contains a single projectile that cannot spread out, or at shorter ranges with buckshot (usually 8-12 pellets)

Why is this the weapon of choice?

They are ideal for self-defense for many reasons and were standard in most police cruisers in the USA until about ten years ago when there was a switch to AR-15s:

• Easy to use; does not pose the muzzle control difficulty of a pistol nor (with buckshot) the precise aiming requirement of a pistol or rifle
• Safe (from a standpoint of unwanted firing) because they are typically stored/carried without a round in the chamber but can be quickly made ready
• Reliable
• Inexpensive
• Ammunition is inexpensive and plentiful
• Not highly regulated (though some jurisdictions restrict them based on magazine size or a combination of factors like appearance or barrel length)
• Sufficient magazine capacity (Usually at least 5 in the magazine, varies by model)
• Ease of reloading
• Better accuracy than pistols
• Choice of several kinds of ammunition that are applicable to varying scenarios

It would seem a rifle would be better for accuracy ar range, and a handgun with a larger clip for more rapid firing at close quarters. Also easier to conceal.

Rifles are theoretically more accurate at long range but most self-defense engagements are at short range. In practice the range advantage is hard to realize when firing from the shoulder, and that would be especially true from a boat.

Shotguns with 00 buckshot loads fire 8 pellets per trigger pull, the handgun with a larger clip actually has less firepower. The only advantages of pistols are that they are easier to carry and easier to conceal. As I noted above, muzzle control is extraordinarily difficult to learn with pistols. People new to them wave them all over the place.

Then there is the question, of where is the line in the sand?
They arrive. they talk, but somethings not right.
you cant just blast em. If the board, they have crossed the line.
but what if they are just threatening but not attacking...
Where is that defining moment when the you define the moment, or it defines you? Where is the that line in the sand?

You have to assess the threat. How many boats? How many people? Are weapons visible? Are there fish aboard? Daytime or night? Are they jamming VHF 16? If there are multiple boats converging on you from different directions and one guy is holding a pistol then you have a problem. If it's two men and a bunch of fish, maybe not. If there's time and doubt, use the VHF, use the loudhailer.

On the high seas, you do what is in the much-maligned video upthread and use universal gestures to wave them off, followed by warning shots. If all they wanted was cigarettes, well, they'll just leave.

[GordMay]

In Canada, you are more likely to die from the kick of a moose, than of a terrorist attack.
Those damn moose limbs.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Jammer

That's called a choke. They come in various grades, extra full, full, improved, modified, probably others. It is important for the reason you state. A full choke allows greater range but requires better aim since the pattern is smaller.

Correct. The ones for law enforcement and similar uses typically have cylinder bore (no choke) or maybe modified. They are commonly used with slug ammunition, which does not benefit from a choke as it contains a single projectile that cannot spread out, or at shorter ranges with buckshot (usually 8-12 pellets)

They are ideal for self-defense for many reasons and were standard in most police cruisers in the USA until about ten years ago when there was a switch to AR-15s:

• Easy to use; does not pose the muzzle control difficulty of a pistol nor (with buckshot) the precise aiming requirement of a pistol or rifle
• Safe (from a standpoint of unwanted firing) because they are typically stored/carried without a round in the chamber but can be quickly made ready
• Reliable
• Inexpensive
• Ammunition is inexpensive and plentiful
• Not highly regulated (though some jurisdictions restrict them based on magazine size or a combination of factors like appearance or barrel length)
• Sufficient magazine capacity (Usually at least 5 in the magazine, varies by model)
• Ease of reloading
• Better accuracy than pistols
• Choice of several kinds of ammunition that are applicable to varying scenarios

Rifles are theoretically more accurate at long range but most self-defense engagements are at short range. In practice the range advantage is hard to realize when firing from the shoulder, and that would be especially true from a boat.

Shotguns with 00 buckshot loads fire 8 pellets per trigger pull, the handgun with a larger clip actually has less firepower. The only advantages of pistols are that they are easier to carry and easier to conceal. As I noted above, muzzle control is extraordinarily difficult to learn with pistols. People new to them wave them all over the place.

You have to assess the threat. How many boats? How many people? Are weapons visible? Are there fish aboard? Daytime or night? Are they jamming VHF 16? If there are multiple boats converging on you from different directions and one guy is holding a pistol then you have a problem. If it's two men and a bunch of fish, maybe not. If there's time and doubt, use the VHF, use the loudhailer.

On the high seas, you do what is in the much-maligned video upthread and use universal gestures to wave them off, followed by warning shots. If all they wanted was cigarettes, well, they'll just leave.

A good analysis. This is why I chose the tactical shotgun as well.

[5BTM]

Originally Posted by GordMay

In Canada, you are more likely to die from the kick of a moose, than of a terrorist attack.
Those damn moose limbs.

Just don't take an Air India flight.
Probably more likely in the future.

[Chotu]

Funny thing about Canada. The only time I really needed my gun was in Ottawa Canada of all places.

Canada is an exceedingly friendly, safe nice place. You really never feel like you need a gun.

However, the only place that someone has ever tried to break into my RV was Ottawa. A truck driver was going to his truck very early in the morning and decided to try to pull the door of the RV open. He kept at it for a few minutes but never succeeded. Of course, I checked my gun into storage in the states before crossing the border. So it was the one time I didn’t have it that I needed it.

This is decades of travel full-time from Venezuela to Nova Scotia and everywhere in between as well as from San Diego to Caribou/Presque Isle, Toronto to PEI and everywhere in between those.

Only needed it though nice in Ottawa when I didn’t have it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Chotu

... A truck driver was going to his truck very early in the morning and decided to try to pull the door of the RV open. He kept at it for a few minutes but never succeeded. Of course, I checked my gun into storage in the states before crossing the border. So it was the one time I didn’t have it that I needed it ...

It’s statistically proven, that having a ladder in your home, is more dangerous, than a loaded gun.
That’s why I have 12 guns*, in case some maniac tries to sneak a ladder, in here.


* Including my, Canadian made, Eh-K-47.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by GordMay

In Canada, you are more likely to die from the kick of a moose, than of a terrorist attack.
Those damn moose limbs.

Moose is loose but don’t forget da bear

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Funny and true observation.


The padlocks used on 99.9 percent of the boats I've seen can be cut with a hacksaw in 2 minutes. Yet they seem to deter most lazy thieves.

and picked or shimmed in under 2 seconds, with much less noise and effort, yet seem to work ok. Maybe thieves don't have youtube to follow Deviant Ollum or the Lock Picking Lawyer lol

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by ixnax

For clarity, a pump shotgun (with the proper ammunition and in capable hands) is a formidable weapon and not just a movie prop.


The first shot is formidable if you're chambered for 3" and are loaded with buckshot. In between Shots 1 and 2 you're a target.

And how long does that take?

[team karst]

I am now thinking airsoft M4’s to all crew. Fix the muzzle tho.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Moose is loose but don’t forget da bear

The fellow in the right-hand panel seems to have a bear behind!

[Tillikum]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

And how long does that take?

Depends if you have a semi-auto or a slam-firing pump action. If the latter you hold the trigger back and work the pump and it fires as fast as you pump it. The question is how many rounds do you have in the magazine, and how quickly can you get more in there?

A take-down type such as the Winchester Model 12 is much preferable for storage and cleaning, and ease of transportation in these anxious times.

It's a century plus old clipping, but the technology is pretty much the same. 00 buckshot hasn't changed. Slugs for shotguns are new since then and give greater range and hitting power than shot.

The other questions are, can everyone aboard who should, safely operate the weapons and are they and the ammunition securely stored, but still accessible while protected from moisture and salt air?

At 100 yards or more any decent plastic replica with a banana magazine will have considerable deterrence value, if the person wielding it can do so convincingly.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Tillikum

Depends if you have a semi-auto or a slam-firing pump action. If the latter you hold the trigger back and work the pump and it fires as fast as you pump it. The question is how many rounds do you have in the magazine, and how quickly can you get more in there?

A take-down type such as the Winchester Model 12 is much preferable for storage and cleaning, and ease of transportation in these anxious times.

This is, how shall we say, "gun enthusiast discussion," that isn't relevant to practical self defense or cruising. Slam-firing shotguns are dangerous. No reputable maker has manufactured or sold them since 1975. The Winchester Model 12 was discontinued in 1964. Semi-auto shotguns suitable for self-defense are available but costly; $2200 for a Benelli M4 (semi-auto) vs. $400 for a Mossberg 500 or $500 for a Remington 870 (both pumps). Any benefit for a typical self-defense user is marginal.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jammer

This is, how shall we say, "gun enthusiast discussion," that isn't relevant to practical self defense or cruising.

We all knew it would drift this way.

But I will say that you and a few others have provided some very level-headed information and advice on this contentious subject.