Solent vs Cutter rigs

[ontherocks83]

So an additional question. When sailing a Cutter, can you only use both headsails when sailing close hauled or can they be used together on a close reach or reach also?

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

So an additional question. When sailing a Cutter, can you only use both headsails when sailing close hauled or can they be used together on a close reach or reach also?

I use both up to around 90-100 degrees true depending on conditions.

[HankOnthewater]

I agree with virtually all posts but if you read post #9 (Bilkenny), post #11 (Jim Cate), post #14 (Dockhead) and post #21 (DMcantor), they tell it all.

I have a solent rig, both genoa and solent on furlers. I have sailed a boat very similar to mine, but with a staysail/cutter rig. My preference remains with solent. I agree with Dockhead that those furlers add windage when going upwind.

One thing has not been mentioned in this thread yet: when adding a cutter staysail, one needs another set of sheet winches as often staysail and genoa are used at the same time. In case of a solent type of rig: one flies either the genoa or the inner staysail, not at the same time.

I use my headsails this way:
Under 10 knots winds: large ballooner (not on a stay)
10 to 18-20 knots: genoa (~130%)
20-30 knots: solent (this combination is used 75% of the time in the conditions I sail in)
> 30 knots: rolling solent gradually as wind increases
Direct downwind: combination of any 2 of above sails

Here are two other links with similar discussions on this topic:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...il-205562.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-191263.html

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Forgive the dumb question, but do you mean that because on a solent you have 2 large head sails instead of on a cutter where you have one genoa and one smaller stay sail? or is there something else I am missing?

Yes, exactly.

Plus the two large headsails are rarely used together, so one of them is always up there just producing windage. And weight aloft!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

So an additional question. When sailing a Cutter, can you only use both headsails when sailing close hauled or can they be used together on a close reach or reach also?

Depends on the geometry and how the sail is cut. Mine is quite flat, and works well close hauled. Biggest effect from the staysail is on a reach, but mine is useful even hard on the wind, especially if you tweak the clew inboard a bit with a barber hauler.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If anything, the most unsuitable rig for single handing will be the sloop, where you can't change the sail plan without help handling sails.

Not always. I will put a word in for the simplicity and efficiency of a sloop.

Our working sail with two of us on board (and it would be single handing also) is mainsail and 85% jib. That is it. Any wind over 11 true we are sailing powered up and going well. Less than that we admit, it is slower, but still sailing. Only in the most unusual situations do we set a larger sail. This combination is good to about 20kts, which covers a big percentage of the time for us. As the wind builds we reef the main and continue to reef as the wind builds further. After about 40kts we'd be on a third reef and then we'd just take down the jib. This works very well for us.

We have a sloop with a big SA/Disp. The boat sails very well with the combination I mentioned, AND it is dead-simple. No extra winches, no extra sheets, tacking is almost a non-brainer, (and fast), and the least wind resistance of any rig. Off the wind we ease the sheets. Period. if the wind is way aft, we can and do set a pole to hold the jib to windward.

So the benefit of the sloop rig is simplicity and efficiency. We are all about simplicity and efficiency of sailing, both handling and wind resistance. The point about bringing the center of effort back from the bow is important in theory but it just is not an issue for us. The boat feels well balanced in all wind strengths with a jib and main and even fine with main only in those very, very high wind situations.

Light, simple, fast and easy.

[Nicholson58]

We are a cutter rigged ketch. In the eastern Caribbean the cutter is out way more than the yankee. Winds are often above 20. In rolling following seas, the cutter & mizzen moves sail closer to the deck and reduces the death rolls. When beating, cutter and yankee work well together.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

We are a cutter rigged ketch. In the eastern Caribbean the cutter is out way more than the yankee. Winds are often above 20. In rolling following seas, the cutter & mizzen moves sail closer to the deck and reduces the death rolls. When beating, cutter and yankee work well together.

That is a beautiful boat! Also a lot of sails to manage, but I'm guessing you get used to it pretty quick.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Not always. I will put a word in for the simplicity and efficiency of a sloop.

Our working sail with two of us on board (and it would be single handing also) is mainsail and 85% jib. That is it. Any wind over 11 true we are sailing powered up and going well. Less than that we admit, it is slower, but still sailing. Only in the most unusual situations do we set a larger sail. This combination is good to about 20kts, which covers a big percentage of the time for us. As the wind builds we reef the main and continue to reef as the wind builds further. After about 40kts we'd be on a third reef and then we'd just take down the jib. This works very well for us.

We have a sloop with a big SA/Disp. The boat sails very well with the combination I mentioned, AND it is dead-simple. No extra winches, no extra sheets, tacking is almost a non-brainer, (and fast), and the least wind resistance of any rig. Off the wind we ease the sheets. Period. if the wind is way aft, we can and do set a pole to hold the jib to windward.

So the benefit of the sloop rig is simplicity and efficiency. We are all about simplicity and efficiency of sailing, both handling and wind resistance. The point about bringing the center of effort back from the bow is important in theory but it just is not an issue for us. The boat feels well balanced in all wind strengths with a jib and main and even fine with main only in those very, very high wind situations.

Light, simple, fast and easy.

That does sound pretty good. One key element of this approach is the 85% jib.


I can't emphasize enough how great non-overlapping jibs are -- I wish I had understood this years ago. In my experience, they have all the power of an overlapping sail down to quite low wind speeds, so long as wind is ahead of the beam, and are far superior hard on the wind due to reduced drag.



They can be used up to much higher wind speeds -- again, due to reduced drag, which also reduces heeling.


You do lose out in very light wind on a beam reach and lower, but not by nearly as much as you gain in other situations.


To put it another way -- a large overlapping headsail gives you power in light wind on a beach reach and lower, but in exchange you point worse and have to reef earlier, and struggle with heeling and other effects of drag, from much lower wind speeds. A reefed headsail loses most of its effectiveness unless you are sailing downwind, and using a headsail with a reef in it wears it out fast. So like you I am very much a proponent of just taking the headsail down when it can't be used unreefed anymore.




Another point of agreement with you -- I was trained to pay attention to fore-aft balance of the sail plan, and for many years perceived limits to sail combinations which turned out not to exist. Weather helm on my present boat is practically a linear function of heel angle, and is seemingly not influenced even slightly by fore-aft balance of the sail plan. that old rule must have come from low aspect rigs.



So what that means is that on many boats, including mine, you can vary sail area by taking down one or another sail and continuing with the other one, without experiencing any balance problems. I need some mainsail up to sail best hard on the wind, but otherwise it doesn't really matter -- the boat sails fine with just the main, just the jib, or just the staysail. Much better to take one away and leave the other unreefed, than reef both of them.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’m 38’, and there is 11’ between my mast and the Staysail foiler.
I’m self tacking, but the boom is very easily removed and I could put a 10’6” dinghy up there pretty easily and loose foot the Staysail if I use the term correctly.
It would make tacking more problematic as the dinghy is there, and I couldn’t sheet it in real tight either.
If I ever make a very long crossing, that is my plan, although I have not done it yet.
However as I expect them to be mostly downwind passages, I don’t think it will have much effect

Re cut the staysail. Downwind you are most likely with genny anyways me thinks..
Teddy

[northwestsailor]

Hmmmm....I am now thoroughly confused. I thought I had a Solent rig because I had two headsails with stays attached to the top of the mast AND I have a staysail stay attached near the top spreader.

So is my rig called a Solent cutter or yet another obtuse nomenclature steeped in the great nautical tradition.

[sail2bluesue]

To answer the original question re: would you choose solent or cutter rig if you had it to do again....


We'd choose neither. We'd rather have a new genoa with reefing pads.



We added a solent rig to our Jeannau 43' masthead sloop, mostly in an effort to have a heavy weather sail that we could use when we didn't want to reef the genoa way down. A Jeanneau mast is set up with the extra slot at the top so it was easy to add the solent and we knew we didn't want to deal with running backstays for a cutter rig. We also use the solent for wing on wing with the Genoa, when we're running straight downwind and the Gennaker isn't the right choice.



HOWEVER....If we had it to do over, We wouldn't add the solent for these reasons;
It makes it necessary to roll up the genoa when tacking - not major, but a hassle.
The anchor locker is a bit more awkward to get to, and if the windlass does go out, it's a nightmare to pull the anchor using the winch on the windlass as you can't go 360 degrees in a turn because the solent stay is in the way.



It would have made more sense to spend the money we spent on the solent stay, rigging and jib, for a new Genoa that would have reefed better. Live and learn!



If anyone is in the market for a solent stay, and jib, let us know!! :-)

[glynhome]

A solent rig consists of two head sails set close together one behind the other.
I have a solent rigged self tacking jib and 140% Genoa, both permanently attached and on furlers. It’s a great set up that gives good flexibility, I fly the jib above 17kts wind or if there’s lots of tacking to be done, otherwise it’s the Genoa.
In any case I advise a powered winch for furling the Genoa during tacks.
The only downside I experience is that the windage of both sails when furled close together is considerable, fine if you like kiting around in an anchorage.

[glynhome]

Here’s a photo of my rig.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by northwestsailor

Hmmmm....I am now thoroughly confused. I thought I had a Solent rig because I had two headsails with stays attached to the top of the mast AND I have a staysail stay attached near the top spreader.

So is my rig called a Solent cutter or yet another obtuse nomenclature steeped in the great nautical tradition.

Maybe a Clutter?

I have a stay ( used with my storm jibs .. one of which is quite big ) which goes from the vicinity of the upper spreaders to just aft of the capstan ( about 2 feet or so behind abaft the stem )....

I believe this makes her a Slutter.... which sounds rather vulgar.....