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Old 20-12-2016, 18:20   #1
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Solent vs. backup furling jib

I’ve been refitting my ’78 Bristol 29.9 for a little over a year now, and am learning a ton as I go. We spent the last three weeks sailing Annapolis to Oriental and am seeking some sail/rigging advice.


I have five sails for the boat: a ~150% Genoa on a nice Furlex with a double track, a decent main with two reef points, an asymmetrical spinnaker (that I have no experience using) that is in excellent condition, a backup main that lacks battens but is otherwise serviceable, and a heavy high cut 100% hank on jib in excellent shape that I currently can’t use (was the foresail before the PO added the furler). I was just given a whisker/spinnaker pole but haven’t played with it yet, nor do I have a track on the mast currently or topping lift for the pole.


I work in the summer and am off winters. I plan to sail to the Bahamas this winter, and over the next few seasons to Cuba/Mexico/Guatemala….and maybe someday through Panama and to Alaska or Patagonia.
Maybe.

So, I was considering having the 100% jib converted to furling so as so have a serviceable backup sail. The sail maker suggested I research adding a Solent stay instead. I read the recent post on sailing DDW wing on wing with two foresails versus at angles with the asym, which raises the possibility of going wing on wing with the 2nd track on the furler for the jib.

I think, based on my limited experience, that there are compelling arguments for a variety of options here, so I am asking advice: add a Solent or removable inner headstay and have the hank on as a backup/heavy weather sail, or convert it for furling?



Thanks!

Phil
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Old 20-12-2016, 19:56   #2
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

Since you are already IN Oriental proceed to the coffee shop by the free dock. State your interesting problem out loud a couple times. Make friends with the naval architects who stroll in just for the challenge. Eventually someone will introduce you to the east coast's #1 rigger Mark !!! A day or two working alongside Mark on your setup and you'll enjoy several years of good "luck" with your rig as I have. You will then also bear the small burden of finding an adequate way to thank the man after the fact--as I myself did until seeing your post today. Cheers!
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Old 20-12-2016, 20:09   #3
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

I spoke to Mark about it, in fact....he said that in 30+ years he never saw a boat with what I was talking about doing.
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Old 20-12-2016, 20:25   #4
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

Your 150 is too big for long term offshore cruising IMHO. A Solent stay is a good way to go. I prefer to have the Solent with a heavy 90-100% jib on a furler. In many cruising areas the smaller jib is all you will use - think consistent heavy tradewinds.
Removable Solent's with Hank on sails sound fine, but in practice don't get used much -- leaving the larger Genoa to get over furled in heavier air.
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Old 20-12-2016, 20:29   #5
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

Mark's comment alone might perhaps influence your design. Good luck and please share what you decide.
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Old 20-12-2016, 20:51   #6
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

We installed a solent stay about 25 years ago when we converted to roller furling in NZ. We use the detachable stay for heavy weather sails 65% and a storm jib. But we also use our hank on a spare 140% for down wind trade wind sailing. Double pole headsail is our trade wind rig.

Having the ability to go to a storm jib is the main reason we added the. SS..

The SS comes within a few feet of the mast head and attached just aft of the roller furler.

Good luck with your choice

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Old 20-12-2016, 21:12   #7
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

Before doing anything with an inner forestay you want to be sure that the boat has a suitable anchor point. It should not only be a tang at deck level but have something underdeck to support it. That is usually a tensioned cable going down to the keel. Some boats fix the inner forestay to a beam but I doubt that your boat would have one of those.

I would certainly sew a luff tape to the 100% jib so that you can furl it.
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Old 20-12-2016, 22:49   #8
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

I love the hank on solent idea, personally. It's what I plan to do.

We have a 140 and a 110 for our furler. We swap them out based on the forecast/season. It's a royal pain to do. I'd love to have a solent with a heavy weather sail ready to go in a deck bag. Don't forget you'll probably need dedicated leads for it, though. Look into using tweakers instead of a staysail track unless your boat already has a track. You won't need extra winches because you can't run a solent and genoa together, other than wing on wing downwind.

Maybe look into using synthetic rigging for the solent, as well. It will make it easy to store inshore in light winds when you want to be able to tack your genoa.
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Old 21-12-2016, 01:51   #9
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

I have a solent rig with both the headsails on furlers and a detachable inner forestay for the storm jib works a treat while sailing,only issue is lots of windage forward so nose falls off fast in gusts when motoring slowly.
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Old 21-12-2016, 02:15   #10
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

I'm a big fan of a 2nd headstay, especially in non-racing applications. And you can add a stay with it's attachment point to the mast in the Solent position, & use the stay in either the Solent position, or the Staysail position. The sail won't know the difference, & it makes having runners more of an optional thing, than a requirement.

Here's some info on them, & yes, it being my 1st post on CF it was perhaps a bit rough around the edges (but what else isn't new).

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1559595
Adding a Solent Stay - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article
Also, see the Colligo Marine website on adding stays, & connecting their lower ends, structurally.

When pondering on what sails to fly from a Solent stay, you can run heavy air sails, or light. Both on hanks/soft shackles. Though to be used in the more traditional sense in line with the stay’s name, you'd hoist something like an 80% jib on them. Maybe a bit bigger, or perhaps a little smaller. With it preferably cut so that it doesn't at all overlap the mast, & requires little sheet trimming through a tack.

The sizing of a heavier air jib, like say a "3.5", would depend upon how stiff the boat is, the prevailing winds in your primary sailing area, & the how, & how well, that your boat shifts gears. Since headsail choices for a boat which gets much of it’s drive from the main like a J-boat would differ from an IOR pig that’s driven mostly by it’s jib. So you need to design your headsail sizes, & inventory, around the boat’s overall sail/performance quiver/parameters.

For example on boats like Pearson 40’s, I’m told that they don’t shift gears well via small adjustments to their main’sl. Meaning that you have to make substantial changes to the main on them in order to alter the boat’s handling. So that it really only makes sense to have 2 deep (large) reef points in their mains instead of 3 regular ones.


The same principle applies to headsails, Solent’s & staysails in particular. Since with some boats as the wind increases, you shift down directly from a 105% jib to a staysail that’s but half that size in terms of area. Where on other boats you might go from a 105% jib to an 75-80% jib instead, due to her having different handling responses.


In the case of the OP’s boat, my guess is that it’s possible to roll up the 150% to about 110%, at which time it’ll have lost enough of it’s shape for it to be time to switch to another sail. Say a 70% jib if the wind is still building. Which, it would be easy to throw one of these up on the Solent stay.


So for the OP's boat I’d probably want to adapt the 100% jib for the furler’s foil, & keep it on the furler in the windier months of the year, switching to the 150% on there in the summer when the winds are lighter. And I’d also find a good quality used sail to put on the Solent stay for winds above the comfort range of the furling sails. Say a 65% jib +/-
With the only caveat being that I’d leave the grommets in the 100% jib in case I wanted to switch it back to hanks/soft shackles later on. Plus I’d be tempted to add grommets to the 150% as well.


Also the area of any higher wind headsail also needs to properly balance out the boat with X number of reefs in the mainsail. Otherwise steering it gets to be a beast, & she's more likely to spin out to weather, or worse. Especially if a windvane's driving.

And no, I won’t get into the math of figuring out “ideal” sail area of the Solent jib, based on the sail plan’s center of effort vs. the boat’s righting moment (Rm) Though I could dig up a link to that post



EDIT: For the OP & other interested parties, here's one of a few dozen ways to install a (nose) tang for a 2nd/inner headstay.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...re-177190.html

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Old 21-12-2016, 03:42   #11
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

Fwiw, we have a 150 primary Genoa. I hate it for an every day sail. It's way too much sail area for all around use, has terrible shape partially furled, and most importantly barely fits on the furler.

We didn't realize the last part until trying to furl in windy (25-30kt) conditions. It furls nicely just easing the sheet and winching the furling line in calmer conditions to achieve a loose furl. However with the wind up (causing big tension on the sail even with the sheet eased and therefore really tight wraps on the furler) I ran out of wraps on the furling line drum and still had 3 ft of sail out.

Our 150 is old and is on the list to be replaced by a 120-130, but it still sucks to fight with it on a windy day and watch if flog itself because it didn't fully furl. Anyway, its something to check out before you get into a big wind furling situation.
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Old 21-12-2016, 04:32   #12
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

I'll probably be the only one to suggest this, but we also have a 29.9 and debated adding a solent stay. After researching all of our options we ultimately decided to remove the furler and switch to hank on instead. Less windage, changing sails on a furler is a PITA, and installing the solent stay didn't seem like it would involve simply adding an attachment point and voila - instant stay.

I realize that what we did goes against the grain, but the sails on a boat our size are small enough that they'll be easy enough to manage so we decided that it was the best decision for our situation.

Good luck.
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Old 21-12-2016, 09:42   #13
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

You mentioned having a cruising spinnaker that is still like new. You are not alone; many people buy these sails and stop using them after a bad first experience. When a bunch of like new sails came into our loft for winter service with worn out working sails I decided to create an instructional video on how to set-up, fly, jibe and douse a cruising spinnaker. There are many other videos on the web to help you using these great sails that will make your boat more fun to sail. If you would like purchase UK Sailmakers's video, you can find it in our online store for $15. Here is a link to a clip from the video showing how to jibe these sails. The Cruising Spinnaker Trailer — UK Sailmakers

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Old 21-12-2016, 11:31   #14
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

We have been sailing with a furling solent rig in the Caribbean since 2010. We have a deep-cut 140% genoa on the forestay that is used for broad reaching and for light air. The solent furler is equipped with a flat-cut 105% jib. The solent is attached at the mast about a foot below the genoa, the lower end is about 15" aft of the forestay. We use this sail for upwind work or in strong winds.

We absolutely love this rig. It has always allowed us to balance the boat in a wide range of conditions. Because it is cut so flat, we can get a usable shape on the solent sail even when it is reefed way down. We often sail on genoa alone when sailing downwind, this is a very forgiving and comfortable arrangment and we can reach hull speed in 12-15 knots.

Good luck with your decisions!
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Old 21-12-2016, 11:57   #15
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Re: Solent vs. backup furling jib

The 150 is too big for just generally leaving on. So converting the 100% isn't a bad idea. I would rather have about a 115-120% though. If you are not a spinnaker sailor just store it off the boat.
For the 100% a solent stay would be great IMHO. Maybe not worth the $ and trouble if you are mainly venturing only as far as the Bahamas etc. You could get the 150 and 100 off the boat with a nice 115% sail for that range.
If your long range plans come to fruition, I would definitely get a good 110-120 as your main headsail and keep the solent also for the high cut 100.
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