Docking long keel/heavy displacement yachts.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Iron E

That is very well written, Ryban. This is precisely how we do it. Short forward bursts for pivoting and moving forward. Short bursts in reverse to stop forward momentum

I absolutely agree! Thank you Ryban (and others) for taking the time to share their experience.

After reading the advice I am starting to swing away from the bow thruster idea.

Two hours ago I emailed my Son, gave him a link to this thread and told him next time we are out we are to find some empty pens and put your advice into practice. I'm sure after penning Helen (say) twenty times we'll be a lot more proficient. Then we'll have to do the same exercise in windier conditions.

Thank you everyone.

[coopec43]

My son has just told me he has found an electric outboard on the dump

[coopec43]

My son has just told me he has found an electric outboard on the rubbish dump

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I'm just exploring possibilities at this stage. Did you see the link to this video I posted earlier? (This guy sounds as though what he is doing) (What is necessary is all explained there and it would not be difficult

This is well demonstrated as a stern thruster. I was confused by thinking of it applied at the bow, which seems far more complex. I'm also hesitant to have the number of things hanging from the sides of my vessel as this guy. I can't imagine trying to secure all these things in a squall. 'but a good fit for some!

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

This is well demonstrated as a stern thruster. I was confused by thinking of it applied at the bow, which seems far more complex. I'm also hesitant to have the number of things hanging from the sides of my vessel as this guy. I can't imagine trying to secure all these things in a squall. 'but a good fit for some!

Well if I did fit a stern and bow thruster I'd only want them in the water while docking. Others get by without thrusters so I'll try to do likewise.

[malbert73]

Coopec- I’m confused by your first post where you said you tried to go bow first but she wanted to go stern first? But then your picture shows you bow in…

My perspective is that docking successfully is less about displacement and keel type than technique and familiarity, AND the following factors:
1. Is the rudder attached to the keel? If so it really will not work well in reverse. I’d plan most maneuvers in forward gear, including docking. Basically, turning foils in front of a fixed wing/fin (like a full keel/attached rudder boat in reverse) pretty much don’t work- have you ever seen an airplane or boat with a leading edge rudder or trim tab? Self hung rudder- not quite as bad as #1. Spade is the best in reverse
2. Prop location. If close to the rudder it works as a stern thruster as others upthread have discussed. If far forward of the rudder the delay will be challenging. It twin rudders it’s awful (as I found on a charter) and pretty much requires a thruster.
3. Cross wind or wind from the bow- forget about backing down into a slip without a thruster.

My takeaways from 20 total years of full keel boat handling and about 20 years of spade rudder boat handling. Neither with a bow thruster. My current boat has a keel/centerboard, which allows even better directional stability along with a deep efficient spade rudder. I consider myself a really good boat handler. And I still will avoid docking stern in if there’s any cross breeze or bow breeze. If I had to do it regularly – I wouldn’t. Too much stress, too much engine flogging. Too much risk of gouges, etc. When I go somewhere and want to go stern in, I launch the dinghy and put a crewmember in the 15 hp dinghy with the painter tied to one of my bow cleats. Then they can reverse the dinghy in the direction I ask them to - and keep my bow from being blown off by the wind. It works great, but not saying I’d want to do for every day docking.
Bottom line Coopec- yes learn to dock better. And, unless there rarely is breeze, I’d figure out a setup where you can dock going forward into your slip.

[coopec43]

malbert73

Thanks for your advice.

The photo of the yacht was taken a couple of weeks ago when it was docked bow in.

I feel like I'm starting to drive a car - learning all about the gears, throttle steering and clutch. I bet none of us found it easy for a start (especially the parking bit)

As far as the design of Helen is concerned here are a few line drawings,





My problem is I don't fully understand the dynamics of the rudder steering.I have no problem understanding the dynamics in forward motion but reverse .


I think the quickest way to learn is to get out in open water and watch what happens with full lock and in forward and reverse. How quickly the yacht will stop from (say) two knots. I think an anchored milk carton would make an excellent marker to practice maneuvering.

[rls8r]

Coopec43 -

Here's another recent thread that may be of interest to you.

Getting in and out of my pen with a full keel sailboat.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by coopec43

malbert73

Thanks for your advice.

The photo of the yacht was taken a couple of weeks ago when it was docked bow in.

I feel like I'm starting to drive a car - learning all about the gears, throttle steering and clutch. I bet none of us found it easy for a start (especially the parking bit)

As far as the design of Helen is concerned here are a few line drawings,





My problem is I don't fully understand the dynamics of the rudder steering.I have no problem understanding the dynamics in forward motion but reverse .


I think the quickest way to learn is to get out in open water and watch what happens with full lock and in forward and reverse. How quickly the yacht will stop from (say) two knots. I think an anchored milk carton would make an excellent marker to practice maneuvering.

Beautiful boat! What kind is she?
2 questions: feathering or fixed prop? #blades?
A 3-4 blade feathering prop will give the best reverse bite. A 3 blade fixed will be decent. A 2 blade fixed in an aperture is pretty horrible in reverse.’

In general you will be lucky if you can back it predictably and straight. Don’t expect much steering ability in reverse. And if you get any steering in reverse, it will generally keep going in that direction. Based on my experience with a couple of full keel boats, doing any sort of S turn in reverse is almost impossible.
In my current spade rudder boat it can do that MUCH MUCH better than in my prior full keel boat. Quantum leap. But a cross wind blowing off the bow is still the great equalizer, with the added challenge of general lack of compensatory steering ability when backing down in an attached rudder boat.
But if I must back into a slip with a cross wind I usually will deploy the dinghy as a bow thruster as I described above

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Beautiful boat! What kind is she?
2 questions: feathering or fixed prop? #blades?
A 3-4 blade feathering prop will give the best reverse bite. A 3 blade fixed will be decent. A 2 blade fixed in an aperture is pretty horrible in reverse.’

In general you will be lucky if you can back it predictably and straight. Don’t expect much steering ability in reverse. And if you get any steering in reverse, it will generally keep going in that direction. Based on my experience with a couple of full keel boats, doing any sort of S turn in reverse is almost impossible.
In my current spade rudder boat it can do that MUCH MUCH better than in my prior full keel boat. Quantum leap. But a cross wind blowing off the bow is still the great equalizer, with the added challenge of general lack of compensatory steering ability when backing down in an attached rudder boat.
But if I must back into a slip with a cross wind I usually will deploy the dinghy as a bow thruster as I described above

Mal

She is a Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43. She has a fixed 3 blade prop.

What you say about reversing backs up our experience perfectly.

Maybe next time I visit the marina I'll see a whole group of people staring in awe at Helen and remarking on the tremendous skill of the skipper in being able to reverse into the pen!

[deblen]

Originally Posted by coopec43

malbert73

Thanks for your advice.

The photo of the yacht was taken a couple of weeks ago when it was docked bow in.

I feel like I'm starting to drive a car - learning all about the gears, throttle steering and clutch. I bet none of us found it easy for a start (especially the parking bit)

As far as the design of Helen is concerned here are a few line drawings,





My problem is I don't fully understand the dynamics of the rudder steering.I have no problem understanding the dynamics in forward motion but reverse .


I think the quickest way to learn is to get out in open water and watch what happens with full lock and in forward and reverse. How quickly the yacht will stop from (say) two knots. I think an anchored milk carton would make an excellent marker to practice maneuvering.

Now you're talking! Get away from the peanut gallery & any solid objects. Spend a few hrs learning the characteristics of YOUR boat-no two boat models respond the same.Besides,you have to learn to control yours-not someone elses.
A rudder has INSTANT directional push,when water is being pushed rapidly around it by a prop-in fwd gear.
Same rudder has negligable directional push when being pushed thru water at low hull speed,as in reverse.You must get the reverse hull speed up to a knot or two before the rudder will bite & have any effect-it is just a useless appendage,doing nothing,til you get the hull moving in reverse,so lock it centered and forget about it.
While you are revving your prop in reverse,prop walk tries to pull your stern sideways like a winch winding a rope.You have to dampen this sideways pull by using short 1-2 sec.bursts of heavy throttle in rev.,then neutral,then burst......enough times to get reverse hull speed up to where the rudder bites and starts to help steer in reverse.Be prepared to accept some sideways movement of the stern while you are getting up to speed.If the prop walk has moved you dangerously close to IMMEDIATELY hitting something,shift to fwd,turn rudder hard across & apply a full,1sec. burst of fwd. to push your stern back to track.
Immediately re-center rudder and go back to the above reverse burst routine.
You do this as many times as necessary & whenever necessary when backing a boat. There are few sailboats that will back straight,very far,using rudder alone
Practice backing this way out in the harbour until you are comfortable with it.
Forget about the bow-it can only follow along as the hull moves backwards.


If you ever get a chance to drive a fork lift-take it
Cheers/Len

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by deblen

While you are revving your prop in reverse,prop walk tries to pull your stern sideways like a winch winding a rope.You have to dampen this sideways pull by using short 1-2 sec.bursts of heavy throttle in rev.,then neutral,then burst......enough times to get reverse hull speed up to where the rudder bites and starts to help steer in reverse.

I've seen that technique used successfully on some boats, but I've found that excessive throttle (leading to high prop slippage) when trying to get the boat moving often produces more sideways motion relative to reverse thrust than a gentle application of power. I find it's often better to start in reverse idle, then as the boat starts to move, add a little throttle and slowly ramp up as speed increases until you reach the desired speed.

I often see sailors get very heavy handed with the throttle when maneuvering because they want an immediate response from the boat. Sometimes that's necessary, but many times gentle inputs and a little patience produces a better result.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I've seen that technique used successfully on some boats, but I've found that excessive throttle (leading to high prop slippage) when trying to get the boat moving often produces more sideways motion relative to reverse thrust than a gentle application of power. I find it's often better to start in reverse idle, then as the boat starts to move, add a little throttle and slowly ramp up as speed increases until you reach the desired speed.

I often see sailors get very heavy handed with the throttle when maneuvering because they want an immediate response from the boat. Sometimes that's necessary, but many times gentle inputs and a little patience produces a better result.

Different boats & wx need operation modifications to suit.
I always suggest "aggressive" throttle use because I see so many posts advocating slow,puttering,"don't go faster than you want to hit the dock"-basically drifting-suggestions & I know from experience that you have little or no control over a drifting boat,especially in wind or current.
I encourage everyone to practice docking,backing,etc. manuevers out in the open until they learn their boat & it's limitations and quirks.Once they do that,they will know what works for their situation & presumably make necessary adjustments.

Thanks for your input/L

[deblen]

Another vid about rudder & prop walk in reverse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxCYcVbbXkA&t=300s

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by deblen

Different boats & wx need operation modifications to suit.
I always suggest "aggressive" throttle use because I see so many posts advocating slow,puttering,"don't go faster than you want to hit the dock"-basically drifting-suggestions & I know from experience that you have little or no control over a drifting boat,especially in wind or current.
I encourage everyone to practice docking,backing,etc. manuevers out in the open until they learn their boat & it's limitations and quirks.Once they do that,they will know what works for their situation & presumably make necessary adjustments.

Thanks for your input/L

I am probably misunderstanding this suggestion encouraging "aggressive throttle " It doesn't take much headway to have directional control. For beginners, practice should be in very mild conditions until muscle memory is developed. That said, very short blasts of "aggressive" throttle are less effective then longer blasts of medium throttle.

I'd encourage the OP to find a captain who has experience teaching close quarter maneuvers. There are quite a few people who are good, but few who have experience teaching. There's a big difference - it takes time to understand how to get create scenarios where the student can "fail safely.".