Poor construction

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

When you support or argue for substandard construction materials it taints all your arguments. Why not just suck it up and say that brass is inferior in every way to bronze except for price and put it behind you? Your never going to win the argument as you are debating with people that are way more knowledgeable on the subject than you are.

Again and again I am not defending anything and bronze is not probably superior to Brass DZR and inferior to some plastics. I am only dealing with reality that seems a thing some here are way apart when they suggest that seacocks should be changed immediately on new boats or that on new boats seacocks should be changed each 5 years even if they don't show any signal of corrosion or discoloration.

That is simply not true. Seacocks are inspected by the ones that make boat maintenance and the average time they are changed (if no problems are detected) is about 10 years. That is a fact here, were the number of new boats is hugely bigger than on the US and has nothing to do with me having knowledge or not.

The ones that have the knowledge regarding that are the ones that inspect the boats and change the seacocks on that period of time. On new boats normally the maintenance is made on the dealer shipyard. There are not a problem with new boats having problems with seacocks.

There is a problem with boats with more than 10 years, that the owners, many time the 2nd owner, still think they are new, with seacocks. Some boats with less than 10 years have to change one or other seacock (rarely), after inspection, due to some unusual conditions, namely strong annodic electrical currents.

To finish, I have said repetitively that RCD should be changed in what regards those 5 years to oblige boat builders to use DZR or plastic seacocks, but that has nothing to do with reality? Do you have a problem with reality? You keep misunderstanding what I say!!!

[neilpride]

Rod can last longer, is very relative, a boat lighty used can sport rod for 10 years or more if proper care is done, inspections mean everything and,,, no, terminals last more than 4 years... All regarding its a cruising boat and not a Racing boat....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Rod can last longer, is very relative, a boat lighty used can sport rod for 10 years or more if proper care is done, inspections mean everything and,,, no, terminals last more than 4 years... All regarding its a cruising boat and not a Racing boat....

Insurance companies do not agree with you....neither the rod rig manufacturers.

Sure, it can last longer, the same way a saildrive seal can last much longer than 7 years. I have heard of some with almost 20 years, but there is a reason to change them preventively sooner..and insurance companies are aware of that.

Brass seacocks can also last a lot longer than those 5/10 years....if one is lucky. Many boats still have the original seacocks after 15 years but it is a bad idea as it is a bad idea to not respect, in a reasonable way, the scheduled periods recommended by the manufacturer regarding changing rigs or terminals. After all a mast falling over your head is has bad as a faulty seacock.

[a64pilot]

What is RCD?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Insurance companies do not agree with you....neither the rod rig manufacturers.

Sure, it can last longer, the same way a saildrive seal can last much longer than 7 years. I have heard of some with almost 20 years, but there is a reason to change them preventively sooner..and insurance companies are aware of that.

Brass seacocks can also last a lot longer than those 5/10 years....if one is lucky. Many boats still have the original seacocks after 15 years but it is a bad idea as it is a bad idea to not respect, in a reasonable way, the scheduled periods recommended by the manufacturer regarding changing rigs or terminals. After all a mast falling over your head is has bad as a faulty seacock.

I make lots of reports for insurance companys and if the rod is in good order the insurance is ok ,, Is really expensive to replace terminals in a rod rig in a 4 years interval something no one is doing unless is a Racing boat doing lots of miles under hard conditions, and Racing boats are under diferent insurance policy, as far i know Navtec one of the rod best brands have a replacement interval based in cyclic loads or miles... Its BS if i have my boat lighty used and inspected each year to have replaced terminals at 4 years interval ... Cant say the same for brass seacocks since when they touch saltwater enviroment they start to corroded.... is not the same...

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Again and again I am not defending anything and bronze is not probably superior to Brass DZR and inferior to some plastics. I am only dealing with reality that seems a thing some here are way apart when they suggest that seacocks should be changed immediately on new boats or that on new boats seacocks should be changed each 5 years even if they don't show any signal of corrosion or discoloration.

That is simply not true. Seacocks are inspected by the ones that make boat maintenance and the average time they are changed (if no problems are detected) is about 10 years. That is a fact here, were the number of new boats is hugely bigger than on the US and has nothing to do with me having knowledge or not.

The ones that have the knowledge regarding that are the ones that inspect the boats and change the seacocks on that period of time. On new boats normally the maintenance is made on the dealer shipyard. There are not a problem with new boats having problems with seacocks.

There is a problem with boats with more than 10 years, that the owners, many time the 2nd owner, still think they are new, with seacocks. Some boats with less than 10 years have to change one or other seacock (rarely), after inspection, due to some unusual conditions, namely strong annodic electrical currents.

To finish, I have said repetitively that RCD should be changed in what regards those 5 years to oblige boat builders to use DZR or plastic seacocks, but that has nothing to do with reality? Do you have a problem with reality? You keep misunderstanding what I say!!!

If I want to learn what is really going on with seacocks and thru hulls I can listen to someone who sails a few months a year or I can listen to someone who works on boats 12 months a year making all the repairs. I choose to believe the yard guys who deal with these issues on an ongoing basis.
Personally I know enough about basic metals to know that brass and sea water is not a good mix. There is no question that there are a lot of boats in the Med, personally having traveled a lot I have to say it's the most boats I have ever seen in one geographic area but I also know that the average Med cruiser hauls their boat in the winter and it spends more than half it's life out of sea water where the thru hulls are not breaking down so I'm sure that many of the boats there are getting longer service out of these brass thru hulls. As I mentioned in another post we have British friends who had their boat carefully inspected by a surveyor prior to leaving and after 3 years the thru hulls need replacing, the boat was 7 years old. Cruising 24/7 and attending some marinas in 3rd world countries with questionable grounding on shore power probably all it took but if they had a boat properly built with bronze this would never have happened.
I understand reality, the reality is that the builders in the EU have been using a substandard product that should have never been used in the first place and sailors like yourself should not be defending this type of construction even if you have been fortunate in not having one of them fail on you. I understand that you have accepted that brass should no longer be a used...so let's not discuss it further.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What is RCD?

Residual Current Device?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Dezinfication is associated with changes of color (tarnish) on the brass with gray and/or red/pink and it can also be associated with a white powder. At the slightest change of color or the appearance of powder the brass trough the hull or the seacock should be changed.
Optical studies of dezincification in alpha-brass
One good, other bad.




The seacocks should be impeccable and changed at the smallest sign of corrosion or discoloration7whitr powder.

I have the impression you think this is only a problem that happens with cheap mass production boats but you are wrong. The problem happens also with expensive boats that have similar seacocks.

Corrosion can happen from outside -- like in these photos. In that case, sure - replace when you see a problem.

But corrosion can occur from the inside, and more commonly does. What do you do then? They will look immaculate up until the moment your sole boards start floating.

Why do you mention cheap versus expensive boats? I don't think I said anything about it. If you know of a quality maker using this carp, please, name & shame. We'd LOVE to hear about it.

AFAIK, the UK makers, conservative as always, use only gunmetal bronze, although DZR fittings can also be found in the chandleries here.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Corrosion can happen from outside -- like in these photos. In that case, sure - replace when you see a problem.

But corrosion can occur from the inside, and more commonly does. What do you do then? They will look immaculate up until the moment your sole boards start floating.

Why do you mention cheap versus expensive boats? I don't think I said anything about it. If you know of a quality maker using this carp, please, name & shame. We'd LOVE to hear about it.

AFAIK, the UK makers, conservative as always, use only gunmetal bronze, although DZR fittings can also be found in the chandleries here.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Exactly! And in cases where corrosion was not the result of severe electrolysis, as in the picture, it is generally limited to only a small area of the fitting, usually the area hardest to see without removing the fitting completely and disassembling it for inspection. I've seen many brass through hull fittings that looked great till taken apart, then you find one small section exposed to seawater long term that is wasted almost completely away. Cannot be detected by visual inspection or hammer sounding in an assembled part. Perhaps by magnetic resonance or some other form of expensive NDT, but that would just be silly, if even possible. As usual, Polux knows not what he speaks so exhaustively about.

[minaret]

Note in the picture with the severely pink brass fitting, it would have had to taken apart to see even in that case. The pink is only on the engaged thread and the hose barb, the parts covered by other parts when installed. And that's just the hose barb adapter, this would have had to screw onto a ball valve, and then onto the actual skin fitting. Not sure Polux is even aware that the average thru hull fitting has many parts, and this is just the smallest one of them. Wonder what the actual thru hull fitting looked like, as there is not one in any of these pictures?

[barnakiel]

Nice pictures ...

But how do I know, on the shelf, which fitting is bronze???

And let me offer you this, I took out some 20 years old brass gate valves from our boat and destroyed them by brute force. It took quite some brute force to destroy them ...

Alas, I have seen some much newer brass valve fittings that snapped in half ... even though there was no sign of corrosion on them ...

SO ... how the hell do we tell a good boat fitting from a sub-prime one?

Is going with Groco, Apollo, Lavac and Vetus, etc., the only way?

Mind all make brass versions too.

And so how do we know?

Is there anything like a bronze-test?

Thanks,
b.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

. . .

SO ... how the hell do we tell a good boat fitting from a sub-prime one?

Is going with Groco, Apollo, Lavac and Vetus, etc., the only way?

Mind all make brass versions too.

And so how do we know?

Is there anything like a bronze-test?

Thanks,
b.

Yes. Or Spartan, Blakes or Marecon. Or Forespar for plastic ones (which have certain advantages).

None of these sell plain brass for marine use. Some of them sell DZR, but this is disclosed clearly, and DZR might be ok (opinions vary).

Yes, you can file off some shavings and have the metal analyzed to verify the composition. But a lot cheaper and easier just to buy from a reputable supplier.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by meatservo

What is your impression of Nautitech Catamarans then?

Thanks!

meatservo

You mean the new ones built by Bavaria?

Erghhh .....

Will I get sued if I speak my mind?

They are .... errrrr .... Bavaria quality.

;-)
b.

[a64pilot]

Brass has a completely different look than bronze, at least when new.
Unless I have been hood winked it's not all that hard to tell by looking at them. Like 14 and 18 carat gold, they look different.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Brass has a completely different look than bronze, at least when new.
Unless I have been hood winked it's not all that hard to tell by looking at them. Like 14 and 18 carat gold, they look different.

And weight diferent to.