Monohull or Multihull Sailboat?

[imagine2frolic]

snueman,

A sailing vessel should still be built as a sailing vessel. I have to agree with the fear of those sliding glass doors. Then again like many monos. They are not designed for serious cruising. They are looking to the drinks at the dock crowd, or the charter business. Same thing with lots of the monos that have no storage at all, but will sleep hundreds......LOL

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by sneuman

First, and this is TOTALLY subjective, just really ugly boats on the outside. Lots of wastefully redundant systems and companionways you could drive a truck through. What's up with that? .... I couldn't help imagining that one big wave that screams in over the transom and stoves in those sliding patio doors. It just seems like a nightmare waiting to happen.

sneuman - I strongly suggest you not get one of those cats.

Do you have a suggestion for what I should do about my dangerous patio doors?

Dave

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

44'cruising cat, why from Catty's comments do you conclude that her cat does not sail to windward/tack? She was talking about tacking while trying to claw off a lee shore in extreme conditions : surely any boat is apt to perform better with a dedicated inner stay in those conditions. Did you watch the short video link under the heading 'lee shore' (or something similar) over the last couple of days? Frankly, I can't imagine any boat clawing their way off that shore in those conditions.

Nevertheless, Catty got it right: there is certainly something to be said for a dedicated inner stay for storm sails.

Brad

Not just that comment. All of Catty's comments are basically the same - cats dont sail fast, they don't tack, and they don't go to windward. Oh, and Proa's are even worse.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by catty

Just dug up the race results for 2007 Darwin Ambon race.( down wind race) .There appears to be some variations in times from website to website however.

Race record of "zuma" (open wing racing cat) of 56h 20m for the 600nm gives an average speed of approx 10.6knts.

In 2007 15m schionning "cruise missile" was 6 hours slower with average of 9.6 knots, in conditions described as champagne sailing in 15 to 25 knot reaching conditions. The boat was fully crewed with all extra gear offloaded to maximise performance.

Makes a mockery of anyone saying a modern cruising multihull can sail anywhere near windspeed. Mum dad and the kids with all the cruising crap would be battling to average 7 or 8 for 600 nm.

I know of cruising multihulls that DO sail at windspeed. But not in 25 knots of wind, obviously. Reaching in 5 knots TWS I know a few cruising cats that can sail at 5 knots. I've sailed on some of them.

[Eleven]

I'm looking to get an old Prout. Just been reading the thread on a lost Privilege.
Of all the many comments and trying to learn from a bad result it struck me just how well the Prout team did.
They weren't comfortable boats by modern standards but they were safe, reasonably fast even by todays cruising standards.
They had long keels, not fins. They had a permanent staysail that was the last to come down as wind speed went up. And the cabins were low and lean to cheat the apparent wind into slipping by. They are proven survivors and are still available 'part used'. Well done Prout and Co.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by sneuman

I just went with a friend to look at cats (he's thinking of sort of being in the market ...) and I came away with much the same impression as last time I did this. First, and this is TOTALLY subjective, just really ugly boats on the outside. Lots of wastefully redundant systems and companionways you could drive a truck through. What's up with that? The salesman joked about bikini-clad girls and the party band, but I couldn't help imagining that one big wave that screams in over the transom and stoves in those sliding patio doors. It just seems like a nightmare waiting to happen. I won't mention the make of these particular boats, but suffice to saythey are among the sector leaders and seem to be very well regarded on this forum. I have sailed on several big and small cats, but none of this (IMHO) extremely dubious design.

I have to wonder why anyone would take you along to look at multihulls. What "wastefully redundant systems"? I would have thought redundancy was a useful feature in a cruising boat.

[Southern Star]

I have to agree with 44'CC on this one - what redundant systems? Twin engines? Frankly, a huge advantage when docking (or if one breaks down, as luck usually has it, at the worst possible time). Apart from that, the only redundant systems in my cat are redundant because I chose to have redundancy.

The sliding 'patio' doors? You should read a recent post on 'water-tight doors' by the owner of a Privilege. Although you did not specify the brands/models, I also assume that we are not really talking about standard issue home doors without tempered glass. Those would be extremely dangerous.

Brad

[imagine2frolic]

Southern Star,

You have got my interest on the sliding glass doors. I always looked at them with distrust as a possible weakness. My concern being taking waves over the sterns, and flooding. Another concern would be with such a large opening that the structural stiffness would suffer.

I like the openness of the area, but I see this as a weakness. My companionway on Imagine is more like slipping through a doorway in a submarine......lol. We hang a quarantine flag in the companionway to keep people from bashing their head.....

[schoonerdog]

Being a live-aboard I don't consider it wastefully redundant either. Wasteful is having a bunch of spares eroding in a cockpit locker because you can't tell what's going to break and so 90% of them aren't ever used and turn to junk. We've got redundant water systems, needed when water pump fails or are you really going to tell your wife that you've got no working water and won't have it for several days depending on how long it takes to get parts? Redundant engines, fuel tanks, and props are incredibly useful, actually life saving. Many times motoring into an anchorage after having run from a storm and we've had things happen such as the wrapping a crab pot around a prop or have some stirred up sediment from one of the tanks kill the engine. Don't know if you've had to anchor in a storm with just sails, but I have and it's really not much fun for the family. Make that failure in a busy inlet with heavy large ship traffic or rocks on either side and you can kiss you boat and wife goodbye. Redundant heads, not precisely needed, but very useful when one breaks and you have to turn off the through hull and don't want everyone to use a bucket. As to being pooped, frankly, I've never heard of it on a catamaran. I've gone through island passes in the Jumentos when a storm was breaking in between the islands and ocean waves from africa were meeting the first bahamian banks with square breaking waves too high to see over from inside the bimini sneaking up on us from astern, and we got in literally a tricke of water, less than a liter. Also our drainage in our cockpits are far superior to many different types of boats, two huge 3" holes leading directly down to the water foreward and 1" holes aft. The water in the cockpit would drain at a rate of 200 gallons per minute from the forward drainage scuppers alone and they are sufficiently large to prevent any issues of clogging. As to having a storm sail on a inner head stay, we've got that as well. I'm not sure why people were thinking that it was something unique to monohulls.

[Southern Star]

Schoonerdog, I'm not sure in anyone said that a dedicated inner stay is unique to monos - I listed many cats that have one, as does my own. The point, as I see it, is that it is a very useful bit of kit (as the English would refer to it) for heavy going. And that there are numerous cats (as well as monos) designed for offshore use that do not.

Imagine2frolic, my cat also has a small companionway door - it is elevated about 8" off the cockpit sole, is about 24" wide and made with an aluminum frame and 3/8" tempered glass. I suspect that it would be stronger than the louverd teak drop boards in the companionways of many monohulls. She was built to Lloyd's unlimited offshore standards and, as such, she provides me with some comfort, particularly since the sterns of cats typically lift in following seas.

Having said that, I am still considering bighting the bullet and paying a small fortune for a custom water-tight replacement door with dogs. Likely not required, but if I were trailing the series drogue in horrible conditions and a particularly large breaking wave hit me from astern...

Brad

[sneuman]

Re: getting pooped and the "sliding door" on a catamaran from a skipper who claims to have cruised 24,000 miles in a F-P Antigua 37:

Ladybug Adventures

from their faq:

" ... my (second) biggest fear is getting pooped. ... Most catamaran cockpits are huge, and ours is not an exception. Getting pooped once is not a problem, but if you can't drain the water fast enough your chances of getting pooped by the next wave incease dramatically! Finally after being pooped multiple times the sliding door into the salon fails and water is free to flood the hulls."

and ...

Reality Check on Cruising Catamarans - SailNet Community

"Even then, we were occasionally pooped by the sizable waves, only to skid sideways down the wave face before coming through the wind."

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by sneuman

F-P Antigua 37:

Ladybug Adventures

Reality Check on Cruising Catamarans - SailNet Community

The second was an FP 42 Venesia.

sneuman, I recommend you not get either one of those boats and broaden your viewpoint so as you won't sound so foolish to others you encounter.

My patio doors have rounded Cape Horn.

Dave

[BigCat]

"The storm reached its peak that night, climbing to a steady 50 knots, as reported to us by a passing ship. With the boost of the nearby Gulf Stream, the seas built rapidly to nearly 15 feet. Visibility was eliminated with torrents of rain. I considered running off as a way to reduce the terrible slamming between the hulls. But I dreaded the thought of losing ground and wanted to avoid another encounter with the Gulf Stream. We plugged southward through the night, tacking every four hours to maintain our position between the coast and the current. I warned the crew before each watch to be ready to release the mainsheet if the boat heeled excessively or fell off a wave. The only time the boat felt at all vulnerable was while tacking when we were momentarily broadside to the seas. Even then, we were occasionally pooped by the sizable waves, only to skid sideways down the wave face before coming through the wind. It was going to take a lot more than 15-foot seas to capsize Next Wave." ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** Above is the context of the alleged "pooping." Pooping is something that occurs when running, not when beating to windward. I wonder what makes the skipper think any yacht will successfully tack to windward making progress against 15' waves? ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** Ladybird's thoughts about pooping were just that, thoughts. Ladybird was never pooped. I have been pooped on a couple of occasions, and in my experience, pooping is something that happens when a wave is so steep that it breaks just as the wave is immediately astern. Really, it is nothing to do with the boat, it is just luck of the draw if you are in breaking waves. Fortunately, breaking waves are unusual at sea, unless you are in shoal water or there is a lot of current (especially current against the wind.)

[sneuman]

please, ad hominem attacks aren't productive!

my post was in response to the one that suggested cats never get pooped. that's all!! I took issue with the statement and I attempted to provide evidence to support my skepticism in what I believed to be a respectful manner. Isn't that how this is supposed to work?

I'm not sure why no one has noticed my profile picture! I have sailed more big cats than monos, but I still have my preferences.

I will repeat something I said earlier in a long-lost post. I have nothing against cats. I think they have many advantages over monos, as well as some drawbacks.

[BigCat]

"Although the hulls rarely pounded in the rising seas, the water action between the hulls was significant. I didn't question the structural integrity of the boat, but I was surprised at the amount of slamming and slapping that the after-hull sections took. We had a scare when the latch supports of the emergency hatches in both heads broke. Suddenly we had open hatches four inches above the water with no way to secure them. We sacrificed handles from a mop and boathook and lashed them across each hatch. The hatches still leaked but at least the sea was kept out." ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** I'm not surprised that the European-required "upside down" hatches were a source of trouble-It always looked like a crazy idea to me, for the reason stated above, that is, they are very close to the waterline. If I had to have the @#$%^& things, I'd get solid aluminum hatches like Bowmar all-aluminum hatches, which are designed for commercial boats. (Not to be confused with their offering of typical yacht plastic & aluminum hatches.) ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****The slamming aft is probably caused by berth "shelves," as 99.9% of stock catamarans seem to have them. See The Elusive Cruising Catamaran Performance ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** I hav read, and have no trouble believing, that cruising catamarans are maybe 20% faster that cruising monohulls of the same length, if you average out passage times, rather than concentrate on "personal best" moments. And, of course, light, beamy boats of any type have short, fast motions.