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wingssail · 31-05-2021, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i am genuinely looking for reasons to swap. But couple of CF posts will not do.
What is see so far is i may have to convince my wife to shrink space for around 20 %. On top of much thinner hulls and less headroom. Will be hard but probably can do.

So i guess that lives us with ~ 48 ft performance cat give or take. Similar equipment we are looking at 3x price.

So yeah, I will be looking for hard evidence to justify expenditure. At present can see we could speed up our trips for 20%. Arguments about comfort are non convincing. Seeing performance cats upwind and wild moves, naaa, you ll have to do better sell.

No one is going to give you a business case to "sell" you on a performance cat.

You either value the way it sails and the way it feels to you while sailing, and in that case no other factors are going to mean **** to you, or you don't.

Don't make a spreadsheet and criteria and weighting factors and look for a bottom line number. Just decide what is important to you and go there.

But if you and your wife are not on the same page, forget it. You gotta solve that one first.

jmh2002 · 31-05-2021, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingssail

No one is going to give you a business case to "sell" you on a performance cat.

You either value to way it sails and the way it feels to you while sailing, and in that case no other factors are going to mean **** to you, or you don't.

tp12 · 31-05-2021, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i think we all think wrong way here.

If you put similar skilled people on 2 boats A nad B and A is consistently 20 % faster then it is valid conclusion boat A is 20 % faster.

SMJ experience for racing and lack of L 400 performance shows that L 400 is (very) slow boat on race course.

I managed to take this slow boat and make into decent sailing boat that seem to challenge quite bit of boats that are considered faster as per above criteria and in some specific wind sea combinations actually can even excel.

It only means that my skills are above average. L400 is still slow and most people still cant drive it less than 50 apparent.

I did take time to learn to sail from first principles and have some of my own tricks that have not seen anywhere. Learned to listen to the boat and seas.

So really, you are irritated because I turned in such great sailor thinking that is the boat that makes me great. But is actually opposite.

Thank you very much for recognition.

You live in a fantasy land.

I tell you what. I'll come along when you race Alan and after he whips you, you and I can take turns sailing your boat and we can test your assertions

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

^^^^^^

Asked and answered!

He's got a thick skin to go with being deluded, that's for sure.

arsenelupiga · 01-06-2021, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Just think of it, if he gets a real performance cat, he’ll be giving the foilers a run for their money!

arsenelupiga · 01-06-2021, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

You live in a fantasy land.

I tell you what. I'll come along when you race Alan and after he whips you, you and I can take turns sailing your boat and we can test your assertions

He's got a thick skin to go with being deluded, that's for sure.

disclaimar - i make rough approximations here without knowing details of 44c boat.

44C boat is assume same rating as outremer 45

Going thru ARC rating one can see Outremer 45 is 1.168 Lagoon 400 0.946

So I would expect 44C to be 23.5% faster than me, assuming we both have same sailing skills.

Say in 'friendly race' to NC when we make it say in 5 days 12 hours which is 132 hours, he will have to clock 107 hours - 4 days and 11 hours to break even in same conditions.

I know he is excellent sailor, so that would be of real interest to me. Maybe one day when sun starts shining. But shorter races absolute NO. We had 1 too many.

tp12 · 01-06-2021, 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

disclaimar - i make rough approximations here without knowing details of 44c boat.

44C boat is assume same rating as outremer 45

Going thru ARC rating one can see Outremer 45 is 1.168 Lagoon 400 0.946

So I would expect 44C to be 23.5% faster than me, assuming we both have same sailing skills.

Say in 'friendly race' to NC when we make it say in 5 days 12 hours which is 132 hours, he will have to clock 107 hours - 4 days and 11 hours to break even in same conditions.

I know he is excellent sailor, so that would be of real interest to me. Maybe one day when sun starts shining. But shorter races absolute NO. We had 1 too many.

At least you're now acknowledging that you don't know what you're talking about. The 44c is a lighter boat than the Outremer, to start with ...

Short, long, round, leeward/windward, there's no point of sail or length of race where you'll get even remotely close to the 44c but I see you're already trying to engineer an outcome with made up numbers.

Pride is a terrible thing, apparently.

rabbi1384 · 01-06-2021, 01:14

Interesting how all these threads turn personal. I already regret that after many years of absence I again joined a forum. I honestly think that most serious sailors don't bother and that's just what I'll do again.
Shame that the internet is just full of smartass know it alls.

wingssail · 01-06-2021, 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

disclaimar - i make rough approximations here without knowing details of 44c boat.

44C boat is assume same rating as outremer 45

Going thru ARC rating one can see Outremer 45 is 1.168 Lagoon 400 0.946

So I would expect 44C to be 23.5% faster than me, assuming we both have same sailing skills.

Say in 'friendly race' to NC when we make it say in 5 days 12 hours which is 132 hours, he will have to clock 107 hours - 4 days and 11 hours to break even in same conditions.

I know he is excellent sailor, so that would be of real interest to me. Maybe one day when sun starts shining. But shorter races absolute NO. We had 1 too many.

arsenelupiga, I think we are making progress here. You do now acknowledge that the Lagoon 400 is slower than the 44C, (based on the rating from ARC).

Others have commented that cats in general, including L400, are slower than most monohulls on upwind points of sail.

Being slower is what we have been talking about, and specifically, upwind tacking angles which generally translate to upwind VMG.

Yes, on corrected time, you might win a race even though you would be some 25 hours behind. If it was an upwind race I'd say you'd be farther behind.

Of course you still maintain that you have some secrets which allow you to get extra performance from your L400. Others are skeptical but I accept that, however I've never seen it on the race course.

I don't think you need a 5 day race to demonstrate your skill and success. A short 10 mile beat to windward would settle this quite a lot.

44'cruisingcat · 01-06-2021, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

disclaimar - i make rough approximations here without knowing details of 44c boat.

44C boat is assume same rating as outremer 45

Going thru ARC rating one can see Outremer 45 is 1.168 Lagoon 400 0.946

So I would expect 44C to be 23.5% faster than me, assuming we both have same sailing skills.

Say in 'friendly race' to NC when we make it say in 5 days 12 hours which is 132 hours, he will have to clock 107 hours - 4 days and 11 hours to break even in same conditions.

I know he is excellent sailor, so that would be of real interest to me. Maybe one day when sun starts shining. But shorter races absolute NO. We had 1 too many.

Race to New Caledonia is too short. Make it round the world. 10 times. Non stop.

I'll give you two laps head start.

Off you go.

fxykty · 01-06-2021, 14:23

Maybe the title of the thread should be “Catamaran upwind VMG, really that bad???” as there are various types of cruising catamarans. It’s not about the angle or STW, it’s about VMG.

Some are best upwind high and slow (the L400 cats as an example), others are best upwind lower and fast (44C and us as examples) and others with angles and speeds somewhere in between.

Actual upwind VMG is not easy to show, other than by boat vs boat. Videos or screenshots of tracks or intermittent photos don’t tell the story as there are many factors at play that affect performance. Hence, boat vs boat at the same time on the same water. As 44C wrote earlier, it only needs a few miles upwind.

arsenelupiga · 01-06-2021, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxykty

Maybe the title of the thread should be “Catamaran upwind VMG, really that bad???” as there are various types of cruising catamarans. It’s not about the angle or STW, it’s about VMG.

Some are best upwind high and slow (the L400 cats as an example), others are best upwind lower and fast (44C and us as examples) and others with angles and speeds somewhere in between.

Actual upwind VMG is not easy to show, other than by boat vs boat. Videos or screenshots of tracks or intermittent photos don’t tell the story as there are many factors at play that affect performance. Hence, boat vs boat at the same time on the same water. As 44C wrote earlier, it only needs a few miles upwind.

what is there to prove? I gave my 10 kn true upwind at 3 kn VMG that I have done in ideal conditions loaded around 2 -2.5T.
Expect that Outremer 45 like boat does same at 4 kn VMG give or take.

44C is faster
44C is faster
44C is faster

When I upgrade to my upwind gennaker(or whatever the name) will retest and let you know if we managed to hit 4. But i am still in process of conceptual design.

arsenelupiga · 01-06-2021, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Race to New Caledonia is too short. Make it round the world. 10 times. Non stop.

I'll give you two laps head start.

Off you go.

here it is - I give publicly thumbs up to Umadum sailing

Less material but really high quality especially visual.

And they sail in 45 ft performance cat.

slowNlow · 06-06-2021, 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

We have a pretty active group of predominately Leopard and Lagoon boats that do bay races and annual 150 nm offshore race here in Texas. Lagoons from a 37 to a 440. Many with synthetic sails, aquare tops, large inventory - these guys are serious about competing. Manufacturers trophies, etc. No liveaboards, these are weekend boats kept relatively unloaded. I am on the PHRF committee responsible for rating. I dont think we have a Lagoon 400 in the fleet. Apparently that would be the sleeper among the Lagoons, as the others perform as expected.

Has there ever been a bay-race with a cruising cat fleet? GBCA cant even get them out for the pursuit-style rum-races. I've only seen big cats participate in Harvest Moon and my perception is that most if not all are simply pleased to sail down the coast in a group for a party.

Perhaps that will change as cats continue to increase in numbers (seems they are, aggressively). But to say that anyone with a cruising cat is "serious about competing" in Texas waters might be a stretch?