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arsenelupiga · 31-05-2021, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

A) I didn't get angry at you
B) You're not a victim here
C) If you genuinely believe what you're saying and you're not trolling have a friendly race with Alan.

I'm sure that between the people on this forum we can arrange that and you can prove what a gun sailor you are in front of all of us and we'll have to eat humble pie.

You know what humble means, right?

i think we all think wrong way here.

If you put similar skilled people on 2 boats A nad B and A is consistently 20 % faster then it is valid conclusion boat A is 20 % faster.

SMJ experience for racing and lack of L 400 performance shows that L 400 is (very) slow boat on race course.

I managed to take this slow boat and make into decent sailing boat that seem to challenge quite bit of boats that are considered faster as per above criteria and in some specific wind sea combinations actually can even excel.

It only means that my skills are above average. L400 is still slow and most people still cant drive it less than 50 apparent.

I did take time to learn to sail from first principles and have some of my own tricks that have not seen anywhere. Learned to listen to the boat and seas.

So really, you are irritated because I turned in such great sailor thinking that is the boat that makes me great. But is actually opposite.

Thank you very much for recognition.

JustMurph · 31-05-2021, 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

This should certainly be noted and understood. I don't think much comfort is lost between your Oram 44c, JustMurph's Mumby 48, or similar, and a Lagoon 400 in everday practical terms.

Having spent some time on a Lagoon 421 (and a bunch of similar sized performance cruising cats), I can say based on my experiences a performance cruising cat is a dramatically more comfortable place to be, especially upwind. The hobby horsing and slamming in the Lagoon was really bad.

44'cruisingcat · 31-05-2021, 01:27

^^^^^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

You know what humble means, right?

Asked and answered!

**Jim Cate** · 31-05-2021, 02:00

Quote:

So really, you are irritated because I turned in such great sailor thinking that is the boat that makes me great. But is actually opposite.

Wow...

arsenelupiga · 31-05-2021, 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Having spent some time on a Lagoon 421 (and a bunch of similar sized performance cruising cats), I can say based on my experiences a performance cruising cat is a dramatically more comfortable place to be, especially upwind. The hobby horsing and slamming in the Lagoon was really bad.

all depends on who sails the boat.

JustMurph · 31-05-2021, 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

all depends on who sails the boat.

It's a factor for sure, but all things being equal (with the sailor), the performance cruising cat will sail better and (often) be more comfortable.

The sailor simply can't change the physics of a heavy wide hulled boat with a low bridge deck and weight in the ends, vs. a lighter boat with long narrow hulls, high bridge deck and the weight kept central.

arsenelupiga · 31-05-2021, 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustMurph

It's a factor for sure, but all things being equal (with the sailor), the performance cruising cat will sail better and (often) be more comfortable.

The sailor simply can't change the physics of a heavy wide hulled boat with a low bridge deck and weight in the ends, vs. a lighter boat with long narrow hulls, high bridge deck and the weight kept central.

i find movement of that excess 11 in this chop really good, starts around 1:20. Do you have any video to compare ? that is not normally what they show about boat.

https://youtu.be/iIYJ6I0yFiw

sailjumanji · 31-05-2021, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

The biggest difference in perceived comfort that I can think of would be the feeling of extra space and openness down below on the Lagoon, given that the hulls themselves are much wider, and they have those huge open bulkhead walk throughs.

And more heads on the Lagoon, typically one per berth.

jmh2002 · 31-05-2021, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Having spent some time on a Lagoon 421 (and a bunch of similar sized performance cruising cats), I can say based on my experiences a performance cruising cat is a dramatically more comfortable place to be, especially upwind. The hobby horsing and slamming in the Lagoon was really bad.

Agreed. And that's also why I used the phrase 'perceived comfort'.

Some will look around and 'perceive' the wide open spaces as a certain type of 'comfort' and not fully understand what the trade offs are for that.

arsenelupiga · 31-05-2021, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Agreed. And that's also why I used the phrase 'perceived comfort'.

Some will look around and 'perceive' the wide open spaces as a certain type of 'comfort' and not fully understand what the trade offs are for that.

i can assure it is very real comfort and is not easy to give it up. Marriages go down for that. Now, can you add some evidence to what exactly tradeoffs are as per your post.

rabbi1384 · 31-05-2021, 15:49

Have a trimaran and it's **** upwind. But you can obviously sail much faster on other points of sail and therefore compensate by being quicker on a less direct course.

jmh2002 · 31-05-2021, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i can assure it is very real comfort and is not easy to give it up. Marriages go down for that. Now, can you add some evidence to what exactly tradeoffs are as per your post.

The trade offs have been posted throughout all these different threads that you are involved in. Unfortunately you are wilfully choosing to ignore them.

If you are happy with your boat, just be happy. And the same for your wife too.

arsenelupiga · 31-05-2021, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

The trade offs have been posted throughout all these different threads that you are involved in. Unfortunately you are wilfully choosing to ignore them.

If you are happy with your boat, just be happy. And the same for your wife too.

i am genuinely looking for reasons to swap. But couple of CF posts will not do.
What is see so far is i may have to convince my wife to shrink space for around 20 %. On top of much thinner hulls and less headroom. Will be hard but probably can do.

So i guess that lives us with ~ 48 ft performance cat give or take. Similar equipment we are looking at 3x price.

So yeah, I will be looking for hard evidence to justify expenditure. At present can see we could speed up our trips for 20%. Arguments about comfort are non convincing. Seeing performance cats upwind and wild moves, naaa, you ll have to do better sell.

44'cruisingcat · 31-05-2021, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i am genuinely looking for reasons to swap. But couple of CF posts will not do.
What is see so far is i may have to convince my wife to shrink space for around 20 %. On top of much thinner hulls and less headroom. Will be hard but probably can do.

So i guess that lives us with ~ 48 ft performance cat give or take. Similar equipment we are looking at 3x price.

So yeah, I will be looking for hard evidence to justify expenditure. At present can see we could speed up our trips for 20%. Arguments about comfort are non convincing. Seeing performance cats upwind and wild moves, naaa, you ll have to do better sell.

Strange, it seems like you think we really care what kind of boat you sail. And certainly the extra cost could be hard to justify, depending on your priorities. The mass produced built-for-charter boats are hard to beat on square foot per dollars.