Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Never said YOU should or that I don't believe YOU. There is and never was any doubt that cats can sail very well to windward as is excellently illustrated in your post.


My comments were aimed at arsenelupiga who seems to be having some difficulty collecting the appropriate data from his boat, understanding it and analysing it in a meaningful way so that he can compare with other cats without actually sailing against them.

IS this so? What data I have trouble collecting? Look ,i will display my upwind track again just for you. WE went from left upper side and initial small counter current, second half was mainly 1-5 to 2 kn of counter current. I told you AP (autopilot) was set to 41 TRUE to wind. And as tacks are below 90 degrees, means drift must have been less than 4 degrees. And you claimed drift is much larger for keeled cats. So, you need some refresher. Maybe cats in 1970 had drift you talk about but world moved forward since. See you can do 60 true only on paper.

Anyway, django posted sub 90 tacks, so there are 2 cats, both lagoons in elite club of being able sub 90 degrees tacking. Please keep it coming else i start believing Lagoons are excellent upwind and CF is full of cheap trolls.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Yes, we had a great smoothe passage between Dec. 17th and Jan. 12th, sailed across directly from Las Palmas to St. Martin (F) staying as far north as possible below the duldrums for steady but not to strong trades. We had a friend from the US as crew, he was new to sailing and we don't wanted to scare him too much on the passage.

Actually we've been surfing the Corona wave for an year now quite successfully... Not one test yet and we hope to keep it that way as long as possible.

We sailed around Sicily as they allowed regional traffic after the lockdown up to the Lipari islands, then inter-region was allowed and we sailed to Sardinia. Balearics opened up... that opened the path to Mallorca, then Germany issued a travel warning there and all tourists disappeared, we had a great season there, been to Formentera for a couple of weeks, crossed to the mainland Spain right before they started over with restrictions. We hauled out for 10 days in
Cartagena and sailed to Almerimar for some time, where I fitted the 2nd autopilot, then to La Linea / Gib for two weeks to get my Iridium and wait for a nice weather window.

The Canaries are spanish and travel was unrestricted within Spain, so we made it to La Graciosa, stayed there to relax after the first ocean leg. Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and finally Gran Canaria / Las Palmas right before the ARC. Spain issued PCR test before arrival on the islands, be we've been there already. We stayed there longer than expected, when checking the rigg, our main winch loosed some teeth on the drum and we waited almost 14 days for parts. Weather was OK, we mailed with the authorities on the Caribbean islands for clear in procedures and checked Noonsite, most wanted pre-departure PCR and Quarantine, PCR on arrival, Martinique and Guadeloupe wanted a good reason on top (curfew) but Saint Martin was relaxed, EU flagged were allowed, passage time was accounted as 14 days quarantine if the skipper attests no symptoms prior and during the passage and provides the zarpe copy (checkout) from an EU port with no stop overs elsewhere. So we were allowed on land. Moving on the island between the french and dutch side on land or by dinghy is unrestricted, with the yacht you have to clear out and clear in with all C19 procedures. Marigot bay is a nice anchorage so we enjoy it a lot.

We think about DomRep as the next destination, they don't require testing either, Mexico could be a good candidate too. But we'll see how it develops, maybe a travel bubble 2.0...

wow, excellent! You are inspiration to the rest of us.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

IS this so? What data I have trouble collecting? Look ,i will display my upwind track again just for you. WE went from left upper side and initial small counter current, second half was mainly 1-5 to 2 kn of counter current. I told you AP (autopilot) was set to 41 TRUE to wind. And as tacks are below 90 degrees, means drift must have been less than 4 degrees. And you claimed drift is much larger for keeled cats. So, you need some refresher. Maybe cats in 1970 had drift you talk about but world moved forward since. See you can do 60 true only on paper.

Anyway, django posted sub 90 tacks, so there are 2 cats, both lagoons in elite club of being able sub 90 degrees tacking. Please keep it coming else i start believing Lagoons are excellent upwind and CF is full of cheap trolls.

41°TWA against 2kn of current with 90° tacks, those figures are not achievable even by most race boats.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

41°TWA against 2kn of current with 90° tacks, those figures are not achievable even by most race boats.

my condolescences your boat cant do that. These tracks are real and done with 1 reef in main. Typical speed was 6 kn when app wind steadied for a bit at 22 kn. Current increased in second part of the trip, as water started flowing north, one can see 100 ~ 110 last tack. I varied TRUE angle from 38 to 45, as wind was fluky sometimes. Obviously was great to be able to travel at such speed and manage such great tacks, else we would be there all day tacking and possibly going backwards.



So, please post sub 90 tacks if you can.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^

Making sub 90 degree tacks against 2 knots of adverse current and with boat speed around 6 knots seems impossible to me, so I kinda agree with Dave S above.

Jim

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^^

Making sub 90 degree tacks against 2 knots of adverse current and with boat speed around 6 knots seems impossible to me, so I kinda agree with Dave S above.

Jim

I was on a 15 meter schionning the other day, near new carbon sails etc etc, we were racing, we have 2.8 knots adverse current, boat speed around 9 knots Tw around 8 knots, we couldnt hold 90 degree tacks, neither could the RAIDER (9 meter race boat) in front of us, or any of the boats behind us.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^^

Making sub 90 degree tacks against 2 knots of adverse current and with boat speed around 6 knots seems impossible to me, so I kinda agree with Dave S above.

Jim

speed was 6 kn thru water, not over ground.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

I was on a 15 meter schionning the other day, near new carbon sails etc etc, we were racing, we have 2.8 knots adverse current, boat speed around 9 knots Tw around 8 knots, we couldnt hold 90 degree tacks, neither could the RAIDER (9 meter race boat) in front of us, or any of the boats behind us.

again, i am really sorry about that. Tacking angle must have been around 120 ? Current against us was increasing due to tide changing and around last tack was 2 kn against us. It was directly against last tack, so we were doing around 4 kn over ground on that tack. It has not amended the course on that tack. the one tack before, you can see around 110 degrees this is due to current pushing us up.

At the start of tack we had minisculus current against us so one can see sub 90 tacks. Meaning less than 4 degrees drift. One wonders why bother with draggerboards.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

my condolescences your boat cant do that. These tracks are real and done with 1 reef in main. Typical speed was 6 kn when app wind steadied for a bit at 22 kn. Current increased in second part of the trip, as water started flowing north, one can see 100 ~ 110 last tack. I varied TRUE angle from 38 to 45, as wind was fluky sometimes. Obviously was great to be able to travel at such speed and manage such great tacks, else we would be there all day tacking and possibly going backwards.



So, please post sub 90 tacks if you can.

I've been back through your posts and some of it is physically and mathematically impossible, are you sure the 2kn of current wasn't with you, the water flowing in the same direction as you are traveling.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I've been back through your posts and some of it is physically and mathematically impossible, are you sure the 2kn of current wasn't with you, the water flowing in the same direction as you are traveling.

which one - show evidence

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I thought to repeat upwind exercise to ensure I am not missing something an here you go, well performing again. So it must be true. L 400 perform pretty well upwind for its size.

We had nice upwind sail, second part recorded 2 kn current against us. Winds 10 to 20 kn. 1 reef in main. Flattish water. And one can see tacks are pretty good.
We managed 5 to 6 kn boat speed over water at true wind angle 41. SO that shows leeway is less than what you say, as early tacks are sub 90. Must be less than 4 deg.

Obviously you have not sailed Lagoon to full potential yet. Probably just charter boat, which is world apart from well setup Lagoon for sailing.

This is mathematically impossible regardless of the boat or rocketship.

Forgetting any leeway. If you are traveling at 5.5kn against 2kn of tide at 41°TWA,

• With no tide you will have progressed 4.15nm upwind in one hour at 41°
• But in that hour the tide has pushed you back 2nm so you have only progressed upwind 2.15nm over ground
• If you calculate the actual angle travelled over ground from starting point of tack to end of 1hour it is 59.2°
• You had to have tacking angles of 120° or greater

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

This is mathematically impossible regardless of the boat or rocketship.

Forgetting any leeway. If you are traveling at 5.5kn against 2kn of tide at 41°TWA,

• With no tide you will have progressed 4.15nm upwind in one hour at 41°
• But in that hour the tide has pushed you back 2nm so you have only progressed upwind 2.15nm over ground
• If you calculate the actual angle travelled over ground from starting point of tack to end of 1hour it is 59.2°
• You had to have tacking angles of 120° or greater

Give or take couple minutes on tide table marked start time and end time of the trip. I was observing speedo against GPS. When GPS less meaning we travel against current and vice versa.
thanks for doing this work btw, i want to make sure i am not missing something.

[wingssail]

Well, arsenelupiga, reading your posts and looking at the tracks, which I find rather astonishing, I guess, unless I accuse you of fabricating this, which I don't, I have to re-evaluate the potential of a condo cat on the race course.

Never have I seen this kind of performance, from a cat, any cat, and actually I don't think I've seen it often, if ever, from a mono racing boat.

But you've shown us your proof.

I promise to be more wary of Lagoon cats which show up on the race course.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, arsenelupiga, reading your posts and looking at the tracks, which I find rather astonishing, I guess, unless I accuse you of fabricating this, which I don't, I have to re-evaluate the potential of a condo cat on the race course.

Never have I seen this kind of performance, from a cat, any cat, and actually I don't think I've seen it often, if ever, from a mono racing boat.

But you've shown us your proof.

I promise to be more wary of Lagoon cats which show up on the race course.

you have not paid enough attention. This is review of after 6K nm of L 400 owner.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ew-146203.html

And this specific bit interesting for upwind. I cannot match his numbers.

"Boatspeeds upwind are close to half TWS, up until about 8kn speed through water. After that its better to pinch a bit or reef as the apparent wind will be over 25kn. We've since had some nice upwind sails and tacking through 90 degrees is quite doable while maintaining good boatspeed, say 7kn in 16kn TW, giving an upwind velocity made good of around 5kn."

Owners opt for creating luxury appartment and performance suffers a bit so that is probably where your observations come from. Our boat is spartan by lagoon standards.

But we have leather seats

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you have not paid enough attention. This is review of after 6K nm of L 400 owner.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ew-146203.html

And this specific bit interesting for upwind. I cannot match his numbers.

"Boatspeeds upwind are close to half TWS, up until about 8kn speed through water. After that its better to pinch a bit or reef as the apparent wind will be over 25kn. We've since had some nice upwind sails and tacking through 90 degrees is quite doable while maintaining good boatspeed, say 7kn in 16kn TW, giving an upwind velocity made good of around 5kn."

Owners opt for creating luxury appartment and performance suffers a bit so that is probably where your observations come from. Our boat is spartan by lagoon standards.

But we have leather seats

"you have not paid enough attention"

No, I have paid complete attention. I find your reports (and his, obviously) completely astonishing, but like I said, I cannot, and will not doubt your word, so hence foreward I will be more wary of Lagoon Cats.