Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yes, there are a million reasons people give why they don't race their boats:

"We are not racers"
"We don't race our house"
"We'd be too heavy"
"We have other plans"
"I have to wash my hair"

But then they tell us how they have tacking angles and speed which would embarass any racer.

Why do I begine to doubt that?

I'ts a bit tedious, actually.

I have 40year old MONOHULL. It's my home (My only home). It's heavy, it has almost everything I own on it, certainly all the livaboard stuff, tools, spares, etc.

I know the racing schedule and I arrange things so I can do the races.

When the cats do come out (rarely) we wipe them.

Just show us what you've got, and stop making excuses.

I never claimed that, 47AWA on genoa, 60AWA on code0, 120...140 COG from tack to tack, old standard sails, inexperienced sailor, never raced and learned to trimm properly, heavy loaded condomaran. Our sails are the Dacron stock sails that came with the boat, tired after 8 years of usage.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums....php?p=2955371

I have some good tacks too, basically using windshifts to tack in my favor, windspeed, sea state and current can help too. I am sure, someone with a lighter boat may have a higher pointing and less drift to the side, simply because the ratio of mini-keel surface to wet surface of the hull is then better and the power from the sails has to move less weight (resulting in higher speed TTW and better hydrodynamics) .

Land masses left and right may help too to funnel the air and sea in favor to point higher and tack better, I don't know, but I believe 90 degrees are doable if everything is right.

Anyway, I am not interested in regatta competitions, and also my insurance does not cover this. If I were, I would trim the boat for performance, strip it to the bones, get better sails and a clean hull and maybe some crew that knows how to tweak the last out of the sail shape.

[donradcliffe]

I don't blame you for not racing the house. I use to race my boat in the cruising division of regattas like the Kings Cup, and usually won. I lost my enthusiasm in the final race of a Langkawi regatta when an effing Aussie wouldn't give me room at the finish mark of the last race. He was wrong, thought he was right, and his ego would have let him destroy three boats in order to be first to finish. The finish line boat was a volunteer cruiser and I doubt he ever volunteered his boat again after I came within inches of it in the resulting maneuvers.

I also recall someone got seriously injured at the start of a Banderas Bay cruisers race.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by smj

That’s funny. I just read your 2019 blog about the Banderas Bay race and you finished behind 2 catamarans. Guess you didn’t wipe them out that year? I guess they showed you what they had and made no excuses?

Good catch!

Well, in that race they beat us. And good on them for getting out there and doing it, no excuses needed or given. Both friends of mine and I am just now putting new sails on one of them. I'd like to see more of them out sailing, (same for the monohulls).

These two cats had a 30 minute head start in that race and made a better choice of where to go, but we still caught them and would have finished ahead if the race lasted another 10 minutes.

I want to remind you all that this thread is about catamaran tacking angles and we have yet to see one on the race course demonstrate the kind of angles and VMG that have been reported here. In the race that smj mentioned, it was 9 miles downwind, from start to finish, no tacking involved. The day before it was 9 miles upwind, and the first monohulls, despite starting last, finished first about 30 minutes ahead of the cats.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by TabbyCat

Got her back! Heading to the Bahamas, if the wind ever starts blowing in the right direction. Anyone else headed that way?

Presently in Grand Bahama, headed to Green Turtle on Friday. Anything we can help with, Susan?

Paul.

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Good catch!



Well, in that race they beat us. And good on them for getting out there and doing it, no excuses needed or given. Both friends of mine and I am just now putting new sails on one of them. I'd like to see more of them out sailing, (same for the monohulls).



These two cats had a 30 minute head start in that race and made a better choice of where to go, but we still caught them and would have finished ahead if the race lasted another 10 minutes.



I want to remind you all that this thread is about catamaran tacking angles and we have yet to see one on the race course demonstrate the kind of angles and VMG that have been reported here. In the race that smj mentioned, it was 9 miles downwind, from start to finish, no tacking involved. The day before it was 9 miles upwind, and the first monohulls, despite starting last, finished first about 30 minutes ahead of the cats.

Would be nice to know what kind of cats these are as your boat I believe is considered a racing monohull with a PHRF of about 70? Probably wouldn’t be a fair comparison if the cats were your basic charter cats with more emphasis towards space rather than speed?
The previous owner of our 40’ catamaran was a racer and well know for out pointing and out sailing the racing monohulls. In fact the monohulls probably weren’t much competition, he was probably more in competing with the Farrier trimarans.
There are performance catamarans out there that point as well as performance monohulls and there are cruising catamarans out there that can point as well as cruising monohulls. Vice versa.

[arsenelupiga]

We travelled in front of light daggerboards cat probably, around 40 ft, upwind that was slightly gaining on us. So, yeah there are faster cats of same length or even less.

The other time we sailed with 50 ft mono, comparing on AIS. Wind 8-10 kn, we sailed 35 app and they were 0.5 kn faster, same angle. Wind increased 10-12kn they were still just bit faster. Wind 12-14 and angle to destination at 40 app, we were faster. Then 15 solid and 50 app, we gained 1-2 kn on them. That example kind of shows mono/cat sailing strengths.

[Bullshooter]

What tacking angles can be expected on your average charter cat?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

What tacking angles can be expected on your average charter cat?

not good. worn out sails, fixed props, unbalanced boat will be obstructions. Maybe 120 at best as drift will be bad. Any chop you will get towards 130, 140...

If you had above things sorted out, you get 20 + better angles.

[donradcliffe]

Depends on whether you are running both engines, or just one.

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

What tacking angles can be expected on your average charter cat?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by smj

Would be nice to know what kind of cats these are as your boat I believe is considered a racing monohull with a PHRF of about 70? Probably wouldn’t be a fair comparison if the cats were your basic charter cats with more emphasis towards space rather than speed?
The previous owner of our 40’ catamaran was a racer and well know for out pointing and out sailing the racing monohulls. In fact the monohulls probably weren’t much competition, he was probably more in competing with the Farrier trimarans.
There are performance catamarans out there that point as well as performance monohulls and there are cruising catamarans out there that can point as well as cruising monohulls. Vice versa.

Looking at the race results the multi fleet was an Outremer 55, a Farrier 41es and a Farrier 22. It looks like Wings elapsed ahead of the multis in two of the 3 races. I may have looked at the wrong results, possibly Wings will respond? Possibly he can shed information on the course particulars.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Joli

Looking at the race results the multi fleet was an Outremer 55, a Farrier 41es and a Farrier 22. It looks like Wings elapsed ahead of the multis in two of the 3 races. I may have looked at the wrong results, possibly Wings will respond? Possibly he can shed information on the course particulars.

Look, I was just answering SMJ who read an account of a race in 2019 (not the race you are referring to) in which the two mulithulls got first and second, to our third place, one was a Lagoon 420 and the other I am not sure, but similar sized. The course was downwind. I mentioned that they had a headstart based on the handicap and even though we were gaining, they remained ahead at the finish. It was light wind.

The race which had the Outremer 55, a Farrier 41es and Farrier 22 was a Banderas Bay Regatta in March 2019. The multi's had separate courses, (at the request of the Multihull guys, our RC removed or shortened the windward legs) and anyhow we were not racing against them. The MH ratings are not comparable. OUr PHRF Rating is 72, the Outremer has a rating of 155, so the ratings tell us nothing. The finishing times tells us little either since we were not on the same course. I will say that I'd expect any of these three multis to outperform my boat, based on thier size and performance orientation, on most points of sail (not upwind).

As to comparing a performance monohull against cruising cats, when we do sail with them and I say the cats are usually beaten, I don't mean just by ourselves. When they come out for the beer can races, where the courses are the same for all boats, (WL) and there is no handicapping, all of the monohulls 40 ft and up beat the cats.

But hey, this is a cruising forum. The question from the OP was, what kind of tacking angles can he expect? Somehow we drifted off topic and when claims were made for certain cats my response was that I wasn't seeing it, but after reading this thread I've decided that what we typically see, when the cats do come out, might not be representative of all cats, and in the future I will be wary of them on the race course and not take them as lightly as I probably have in the past.

When cruising I have never been passed by a catamaran, there just are very few of them which are sailed to thier potential perhaps, or, in coastal crusing, even sailed at all upwind. I didn't say "none", I said very few.

To answer the OP's question, after all of this discussion, and not being an authority on the subject, I am willing to say:

You can expect 90degree tacking angles on some of the better catamarans if lightly loaded and well sailed. If you have a typical charter cat with cruising equipment spares, and provisions, you'll get greater angles, 100 to 120.

[Joli]

Thanks Wings. Like you we rarely raced the same course as the multis when racing our Schock 35 which rates the same as your boat. Up and down we tended to be quicker then the multis, reaching they were quicker. Light stuff we were quicker, heavier they were quicker. Kind of a mixed bag that was wind and course dependent.

Cruising in the Caribbean you mostly see charter boats motoring regardless of the number of hulls so not much can be learned.

Sounds like you're in a fun spot!

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Look, I was just answering SMJ who read an account of a race in 2019 (not the race you are referring to) in which the two mulithulls got first and second, to our third place, one was a Lagoon 420 and the other I am not sure, but similar sized. The course was downwind. I mentioned that they had a headstart based on the handicap and even though we were gaining, they remained ahead at the finish. It was light wind.

The race which had the Outremer 55, a Farrier 41es and Farrier 22 was a Banderas Bay Regatta in March 2019. The multi's had separate courses, (at the request of the Multihull guys, our RC removed or shortened the windward legs) and anyhow we were not racing against them. The MH ratings are not comparable. OUr PHRF Rating is 72, the Outremer has a rating of 155, so the ratings tell us nothing. The finishing times tells us little either since we were not on the same course. I will say that I'd expect any of these three multis to outperform my boat, based on thier size and performance orientation, on most points of sail (not upwind).

As to comparing a performance monohull against cruising cats, when we do sail with them and I say the cats are usually beaten, I don't mean just by ourselves. When they come out for the beer can races, where the courses are the same for all boats, (WL) and there is no handicapping, all of the monohulls 40 ft and up beat the cats.

But hey, this is a cruising forum. The question from the OP was, what kind of tacking angles can he expect? Somehow we drifted off topic and when claims were made for certain cats my response was that I wasn't seeing it, but after reading this thread I've decided that what we typically see, when the cats do come out, might not be representative of all cats, and in the future I will be wary of them on the race course and not take them as lightly as I probably have in the past.

When cruising I have never been passed by a catamaran, there just are very few of them which are sailed to thier potential perhaps, or, in coastal crusing, even sailed at all upwind. I didn't say "none", I said very few.

To answer the OP's question, after all of this discussion, and not being an authority on the subject, I am willing to say:

You can expect 90degree tacking angles on some of the better catamarans if lightly loaded and well sailed. If you have a typical charter cat with cruising equipment spares, and provisions, you'll get greater angles, 100 to 120.

i happen to see one of sunset races with Lagoon 410 and around 20 other boats. Light wind and lagoon was not doing well at all. I can completely understand your view, actually I thought the same as you . Not sure whether larger sails were forbidden but for this boat under 10 kn gennaker is a must to have any chance of being competitive. Also there was number of people on board that were simply bored - probably not sure what to do. One could see on monos crews were quite active. Also the driver has not really bothered with looking at telltales or actively trimming sails. Sails were heavy and collapsed quite often. Did not bother to use topper to trim main better, here it goes at least 1/2 knot.

[Dave_S]

It is easy to assume a tight tacking angle is the goal.

IT'S NOT.

If you are sailing well and high at a point before speed drops off, i.e. without pinching, then, the wider you can make the angle between AWA and TWA while maintaining your AWA the better your VMG.

That's a fact. So the objective to improve VMG is to try to INCREASE the TWA as much as you can while maintaining the same AWA.

Therefore, fast cruising boats when sailed at there best will have a high TWA and therefore have wider tacking angles when sailing most efficiently.

The same applies to boats such as the OP but they are not able to widen the angle between apparent and true wind as far as a better sail boat because they are not as fast, the faster you go the greater the difference is between the two angles.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

It is easy to assume a tight tacking angle is the goal.

IT'S NOT.

If you are sailing well and high at a point before speed drops off, i.e. without pinching, then, the wider you can make the angle between AWA and TWA while maintaining your AWA the better your VMG.

That's a fact. So the objective to improve VMG is to try to INCREASE the TWA as much as you can while maintaining the same AWA.

Therefore, fast cruising boats when sailed at there best will have a high TWA and therefore have wider tacking angles when sailing most efficiently.

The same applies to boats such as the OP but they are not able to widen the angle between apparent and true wind as far as a better sail boat because they are not as fast, the faster you go the greater the difference is between the two angles.

Fast boat sailing at 34 app, say 8kn in 10 kn true, sailing at 60 degrees, can simply slow down at same app angle and will sail at 45 degress say throwing in water by small parachute.

At 8 kn it makes 4 kn VMG. Slowing down to 3.7 kn it will sail at angle 45 true and make 2.6 VMG. Although only 46.5% speed of fast boat, VMG is 65% of fast boat. Speed upwind is game of diminishing returns. This may get handy when crew tired or wants to eat, or just relax.

So, dropping app angle say to 30( instead of slowing by parachute) will slow down boat, so that speed thru water say halves will decrease VMG for 1 kn or 25 %.