Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[barnakiel]

Exactly. Why insist on a cruising design to have some not truly essential features like stellar upwind angles?


Empty marketing in a death dash to suck every last potential buyer in the market.


To me, cruising cats are just such an awesome PLATFORM.


They are stable, comfortable, easy to sail and safe. If one or another has upwind angles not quite matching a Club Swan ... well, I could not care less.


The angles are known beforehand from other users as they are from basic polars included. No need to cry over something that is not supposed to be there. Just learn to enjoy all the things that you get in the package. A package that beats most cruising monohulls hands down.


Cheers,
b.

[onavegador]

Well spoken barnakiel! As long term and happy catamaran sailor I fully agree with you.
Cheers,
James

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Exactly. Why insist on a cruising design to have some not truly essential features like stellar upwind angles?

Empty marketing in a death dash to suck every last potential buyer in the market.

To me, cruising cats are just such an awesome PLATFORM.

They are stable, comfortable, easy to sail and safe. If one or another has upwind angles not quite matching a Club Swan ... well, I could not care less.

The angles are known beforehand from other users as they are from basic polars included. No need to cry over something that is not supposed to be there. Just learn to enjoy all the things that you get in the package. A package that beats most cruising monohulls hands down.

Cheers,
b.

Barnakiel, Remember how this thread got started. The OP had heard that catamaran tacking angles were not good. Maybe he was coming from monohull racing mindset and in any rate he was shocked at what he had observed. The conversation evolved into whether or not any catamaran could go to weather as well as a monohull, bit of a thread drift and actually not pertinent to the OP's question since he was thinking about a L440.

I understand that for you and many catamaran sailors stellar upwind angles is not an essential attribute. That's fine, to each his own.

Others of us however have priorities different than that, and excellent sailing performance is one of mine and since half of the directions one might wish to sail are upwind, the ability to go there, for me, is an essential attribute.

People are not crying over something that is not supposed to be there, the OP, and others to whom upwind sailing IS important, are asking a worthwhile question about something which is important to them.

Don't dismiss the conversation simply because you don't care about the answer.

[chrisr]

Exactly. Why insist on a cruising design to have some not truly essential features like stellar upwind angles?


Empty marketing in a death dash to suck every last potential buyer in the market.


To me, cruising cats are just such an awesome PLATFORM.


They are stable, comfortable, easy to sail and safe. If one or another has upwind angles not quite matching a Club Swan ... well, I could not care less.


The angles are known beforehand from other users as they are from basic polars included. No need to cry over something that is not supposed to be there. Just learn to enjoy all the things that you get in the package. A package that beats most cruising monohulls hands down.


Cheers,
b.[/QUOTE]

[arsenelupiga]

looks like most people not aware that you can do really well upwind with lagoon. See this Lagoon 400 at 1:40, sailing upwind 10 kn at ~ 7kn VMG.



https://youtu.be/RlQcTerEs_U

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

looks like most people not aware that you can do really well upwind with lagoon. See this Lagoon 400 at 1:40, sailing upwind 10 kn at ~ 7kn VMG.







https://youtu.be/RlQcTerEs_U

Impressive performance, but let’s get some reality. Lots of wind (AWS 38 knots and TWS 29 knots) and flat water due to offshore breeze, good speed (SOG 7.8 knots) and good angle (AWA 38 degrees and TWA 47 degrees). That makes a VMG of 5.36 knots. That’s very good for a 40 foot cruising boat and no need to exaggerate.

Not sure what the big 10 was, I suppose speed through water that must have surged given that SOG was 2.2 knots slower.

200 mile days shouldn’t be that hard to achieve given the claimed speeds of most boat owners, but they aren’t all that common. Instant speeds do not equal average performance.

[donradcliffe]

Speed through the water can be 'recalibrated' by any yacht broker. SOG is not adjustable, but by taking your videos in the right places (like the Gulf Stream, or Algulhas Current) you can show some impressive performance.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Impressive performance, but let’s get some reality. Lots of wind (AWS 38 knots and TWS 29 knots) and flat water due to offshore breeze, good speed (SOG 7.8 knots) and good angle (AWA 38 degrees and TWA 47 degrees). That makes a VMG of 5.36 knots. That’s very good for a 40 foot cruising boat and no need to exaggerate.

Not sure what the big 10 was, I suppose speed through water that must have surged given that SOG was 2.2 knots slower.

200 mile days shouldn’t be that hard to achieve given the claimed speeds of most boat owners, but they aren’t all that common. Instant speeds do not equal average performance.

not in a mood to fight and duno spanish but 5.43 kn VMG for these conditions is mediocre for L 400. I suspect it is the opposite. 10 kn thru water and 7.8 SOG. So 2 kn current against. Guess 1 reef in main and jib.

My boat does in 25 kn apparent 7 kn at 27 app with full sails in flat water. This gives 5.62 VMG. However I tend to reef earlier as do not like manual steering so not to have to manage gusts.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Barnakiel, Remember how this thread got started. The OP had heard that catamaran tacking angles were not good. Maybe he was coming from monohull racing mindset and in any rate he was shocked at what he had observed. The conversation evolved into whether or not any catamaran could go to weather as well as a monohull, bit of a thread drift and actually not pertinent to the OP's question since he was thinking about a L440.

I understand that for you and many catamaran sailors stellar upwind angles is not an essential attribute. That's fine, to each his own.

Others of us however have priorities different than that, and excellent sailing performance is one of mine and since half of the directions one might wish to sail are upwind, the ability to go there, for me, is an essential attribute.

People are not crying over something that is not supposed to be there, the OP, and others to whom upwind sailing IS important, are asking a worthwhile question about something which is important to them.

Don't dismiss the conversation simply because you don't care about the answer.

OK. No dismissing here. No such intention.



You know, tacking angles....


You can sail 'wider' and faster and be at you next wpt before the guy with amazing tacking angles. This point has been raised by posters here too.


This much said, I stand corrected in respect of the 'dismissive' thing. Not my intention to dismiss, not at all.


As a former national dinghy champion (it was a very very small dinghy though ;-) and someone who grew up before the cat mania, I like and respect good angles, just I no longer get hung up on them, seeing how many other ways there are to get comfortably, safe and reasonably fast, from A to B.


This is, predominantly, a CRUISING forum. The other forum is called Sailing Anarchy.



Respect and hugs to everybody here,
barnakiel

[Docaroo]

Hi Gang
Havent been right thru the thread but for a quick 2 cents worth.
1) If you want to go upwind well, you need centreboards.
There is a good video about speeds across the atlantic in the ARC (principally downwind) that show hull length is the major speed determinant , not centreboards or weight or hull shape.
These all become relavant as you try to go upwind however.
2) Angle to wind is all well and good but if your leeway is bad you will still struggle. I have sailed in a beautifully set up keel cat, great angle of attack and speed, but going alee by 20 degrees or so compared to monos nearby.
3) Patience and planning for the right winds will get most boats to their destination irregardless of their performance.
4) Engines make any boat perform better upwind !!! we have options.
5) upwind without centreboards is a mugs game, but we have options.
Docaroo

[Chotu]

I hate to jump in to a controversial thread and dump a simplicity, but,

*dagger boards
*sheeting angle
*sail area
*hull form/weight/drag

Those are relevant factors that make cats do well to windward.

[Boatguy30]

Well designed keels are only slightly less efficient than boards. I've raced my 34' cruising cat again larger cats with and without boards. A 42' Crowther custom with boards was able to sail maybe 3-5 deg higher. Cost us a few minutes on a 8 miles beat. Seen lots of busted up daggerboard trunks since then.

Most cruising cats have very small cats relative to their length.

My keels are about 10' long at the hull and just over 8' long along the bottom. 16" high. Looking around s Caribbean boatyard, I see no cats with keels close to the same size proportionally. Still do mid teens in a good 20 knot plus breeze so drag doesn't seem to be an issue.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Well designed keels are only slightly less efficient than boards. I've raced my 34' cruising cat again larger cats with and without boards. A 42' Crowther custom with boards was able to sail maybe 3-5 deg higher. Cost us a few minutes on a 8 miles beat. Seen lots of busted up daggerboard trunks since then.

Most cruising cats have very small cats relative to their length.

My keels are about 10' long at the hull and just over 8' long along the bottom. 16" high. Looking around s Caribbean boatyard, I see no cats with keels close to the same size proportionally. Still do mid teens in a good 20 knot plus breeze so drag doesn't seem to be an issue.

Well, this is a thread about splitting hairs sailing to windward. LOL

So, that 3-5 degrees is kind of what they are talking about. Is yours a Woods design?

No doubt some real (and proper foil shape) keels May do better than expected.

However, just like the sails, the performance of a foil underwater is all about high aspect ratio, which boards have and keels don’t. Keels are like a ketch rig. Boards are like that huge high aspect ratio main you see on all the fastest boats.

But no doubt a Woods is a good sailing boat. He’s one of my favorite designers.

[Mystic38]

the 14 page summary..

on average YES, on average the tacking angle of cats is far worse than monohulls.. on AVERAGE..

examples of cats that do tack nicely to windward are just that.. examples. These examples are not the average, or remotely representative of the average cat.

put an average 40' beneteau up against an average lagoon 40 and you will see the result of the OP question

[smj]

Originally Posted by Mystic38

the 14 page summary..

on average YES, on average the tacking angle of cats is far worse than monohulls.. on AVERAGE..

examples of cats that do tack nicely to windward are just that.. examples. These examples are not the average, or remotely representative of the average cat.

put an average 40' beneteau up against an average lagoon 40 and you will see the result of the OP question

How about apples to apples? A Lagoon 40 up against an Island Packet 40?