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Old 23-08-2019, 08:52   #46
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Around 105-120 deg, GPS tack to tack is what I get. And generally beat all cruising cats when racing including Leopard 40s and 46s old models. Crowther with boards and Catana 58 I've raced against didn't have much better tacking angles than us.
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Old 23-08-2019, 09:08   #47
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

My Endeavourcat is pretty much a classic condomaran. While not at all considered a high performance cat it points pretty well for a fixed keel boat. I don't consider AWA to have any meaning at all since it really doesn't get you anywhere. My boat is a bit sensitive to weight when it comes to pointing ability. When lightly loaded I can tack 100 degrees over the ground angle. When loaded for cruising it's more like 115-120 degrees. Lightly loaded I maintained 7.5 knots through 100 degree tacks with a true wind speed of about 15 knots in about 1.5 ft seas in relatively protected waters.
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Old 23-08-2019, 09:13   #48
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

If you are going long distance cruising windward ability is only of academic interest. If local cruising of a hundred miles or so, you need windward ability.


I cruised a serious racing 40 Footer. She could make good 80 degree tracks [not tacks] to windward, & was very fast. I once did 1100 miles at an average of 50 degrees on the wind in about 20/30 knots trade winds. I averaged 7.6 knots, & couldn't get the thing to go slower, even with way over sheeted sails.


I was so punch drunk at the finish, from all the crashing & banging into the seaway I could barely navigate. In future I planned all my passages to fit the seasonal wind direction, & never undertook a long windward passage again.
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Old 23-08-2019, 09:36   #49
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

This is a very generic question and is somewhat akin to asking if a Winnabago is as performing as a Porsche. They both have 4 wheels but different purposes. Performance cats will go upwind as well as a mono from an apparent wind angle (awa). However as the cat goes noticebly faster it brings the apparent wind upward faster than a mono. At 31 awa on a cat points lower than an awa of 31 on a mono because the cat is faster. So from a course on ground (cog) standpoint the cat will not point as high as a mono but the speed will more than make up for it.


Some cats will go up to 30 deg awa other will struggle past 45 awa. It all depends if you have a Porshe or a Winnabago.
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Old 23-08-2019, 09:38   #50
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Whoa, I must be seeing things. Did 44' Cruising Cat show 20 degrees AWA running 9.4 knots? That is head and shoulders better than what is being discussed here.

What boat is that? What was the TWA?
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Old 23-08-2019, 10:21   #51
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
I

Are they really that bad???
Yes, they can be that bad, but for the market they are aimed at, it is not viewed as a negative.

Boats, Monohulls and Catamarans, are designed and built with an audience, market, and intended use in mind.

For many buyers the "condo" features are the selling points. Most of what makes these condo-cats popular are characteristics which hurt their sailing performance. But the buyers are just going to motor upwind anyhow.

On the other hand, high performance brings characteristics which hurt living space and carrying ability. If you want the upwind performance and exhilarating sailing you'll give up something elsewhere.

If you want sailing performance don't buy a Lagoon 440. Find a boat with boards, low windage, big sail area, and slim hulls.
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Old 23-08-2019, 10:31   #52
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

We have sailed Lagoon, Catana and Outremer's and have friends w/Leopards and FP's - the main 4: Lagoon, FP, Leopard and now Bali - best for reaching and downwind - and best to motor upwind - as the now owner of a Outremer 51 former owner of a Prod Cat told us "In the Carib we were trying to go to the Bahamas wind on the nose - we tacked went one hour on port tack 6.5 miles east .5 miles VMG - ditto on starboard". And he is a very experienced sailor. Its all about hull width, length and weight - the joke at Outremer is that you have to cut your toothbrush handle off when you come on the boat". They are absolutely nuts about weight - but you won't get solid wood cabinetry (Privilege & Antares etc) you won't get walk around beds, wide hallways and massive lockers. Its all about tradeoffs and $$$. If you are doing resort sailing Carib, med So Pac - whatever works - if you don't mind motoring more, and sailing slower who cares? If you want to sail fast and have a 'fun' sailboat - then your choices narrow very quickly to Outremer, Catana, SeaWind, maybe Balance in the Rich but not Crazy Rich category (except for Seawind but that is a different duck) Good luck
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Old 23-08-2019, 10:38   #53
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Speed vs safety is another point, light weight, huge sail area, small hulls and dagger boards make them fast and let them flip easier when not watched properly than a underpowered beamy heavy Lagoon.
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Old 23-08-2019, 11:51   #54
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I was on a 31’ Southern Cross, SE winds at 15-20...with the jib at 50% , main with 1 reef, at a close haul, BLEW past a 44’ Cat that couldn’t point nearly as close as us. Met up and had beers with Captain afterwards, and he was saying since there is no heel or flex on a Cat, he can’t point any higher than close reach before it becomes counterproductive...
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Old 23-08-2019, 14:20   #55
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Speed vs safety is another point, light weight, huge sail area, small hulls and dagger boards make them fast and let them flip easier when not watched properly than a underpowered beamy heavy Lagoon.


You can reef that lightweight huge sail area cat to slow her down and make her more stable, ain’t nothing you can do to that Lagoon to speed her up. I’m guessing if the lightweight cat had enough sail reduced to match the Lagoons speed she would also be more stable.
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Old 23-08-2019, 14:23   #56
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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I hope so. It may cost twice as much, but having two should make twice the difference.




Flexofold just does the hub as a composite. The blades are still traditional.
Drops 2.2kg per and supposedly less chance for electrolysis.

https://flexofold.com/folding-propel...ing-propeller/

I'll look into the sail cloth you mention. Thanks,
You'll like the Flexo-folds. We have them on our 2005 L40, volvo MD2040 engines. We now motor as fast on one motor as we previously did with both on stock two-blade fixed props. Stopping is not a problem - about a boat length from 6kn.

While sailing we can do 40-45 deg AWA and the track shows about 100-110 deg. If you pinch, boat speed suffers. Foot off and let the boat speed increase. Maximize VMG to the windward waypoint.
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Old 23-08-2019, 15:02   #57
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Whoa, I must be seeing things. Did 44' Cruising Cat show 20 degrees AWA running 9.4 knots? That is head and shoulders better than what is being discussed here.
NO.

its in the same range as being discussed.

From the instrument readings its sailing at around 52 deg TWA so the tacks will be around 105 plus leeway . ie 110 or 115.

Google TRUE WIND CALCULATOR if you struggle with the math.
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Old 23-08-2019, 17:19   #58
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
Anyone with specific experience of a lagoon 440 , would be nice? preferably a non owner, cut down the own boat bias.
I've got a 440 but I don't think my bias is going to be a problem. She's not a speed cat, she's a cruising cat. When you look up the mast you can see the 2 reflective red squares. She might sail in between those two marks, (I could sail up to 15 degrees off the wind with the Catalina 25 monohull), but I've been unable to trim the sails and make the 440 go when the arrow is between those 2 marks. I don't race sailboats, so my trimming skills might not be the best in the world. YMMV

My top speed has been 10.15 knots with very favorable wind conditions and my normal cruising speed around Cancun is 5-7 knots.

That said, the space in the 440 makes up for not going to wind and if I was in a hurry I probably wouldn't have bought any boat.
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Old 23-08-2019, 19:51   #59
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I've been cruising a L400 for the last three years. Sorry I don't have screen shot proof, but they would be suspect, anyway, because the numbers jump around so much it all depends on when you snap the pic. What I can say is that the best I can do is 43 AWA in moderate sea conditions. With the AP set to 43 it varies from high 30's to low 50's and you notice the speed change when it gets below 43. I'm usually fully loaded with water and fuel, 4 bikes on board, tools, spares, etc.

I decided I'd rather spend more time getting there, but be comfortable along the way and have the conveniences I want when I arrive. There are times I kind of pine for my flying days when I could outrun weather, but waiting for opportune times and taking it easy have other advantages. The only real problem I have is the high windage while mooring. I bet my freeboard area is a high percentage of my mainsail area!
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Old 24-08-2019, 00:08   #60
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I have a Leopard 43 with a 4.25' keel depth. Let me start by saying that I get a true tack angle of about 120 deg. Meaning that I measure this based on my tracks (including side slippage) vs the compass angle. Before this boat I had a keel boat that I raced for 25 years. So, I have lots of experience with sail trim and achieving the best VMG. When racing, up wind performance is critical since you spend about 2/3 of the time doing that. So, I really stressed about this when selecting a catamaran. The biggest factor effecting this on a catamaran is whether the boat has dagger boards or not. A catamaran with dagger boards will point as high as any mono-hull. However, those boats have some downsides. First, they cost about twice what a mini-keel catamaran does. Also, the structure of the dagger board housing takes up a a lot of interior space. Finally, these boats only achieve their superior performance when they are kept light, which is the opposite of how a full time cruiser lives as we tend to carry a lot of gear and supplies.

Also, upwind sailing accounts for less than 5% (more like 1%) of your time on the boat. Cruisers spend 80% of their time at anchor, and when we do sail it is typically not a beat. I watch my weather windows and look for days when I can reach or run with the wind. When I do have to go upwind, I cheat and motor sail. I will sail with just the main and one engine at low RPM. This saves fuel and wear/tear on the other engine. Having the sail up gives some additional power and it helps to dampen the rocking from the waves. Coming from a racing background, I thought hard about this when choosing between a catamaran and mono-hull, and decided to live with this compromise. The funny thing that I latter learned is that most mono-hull sailors motor-sail to windward also. Many mono-hulls have poor windward performance too and need to motor-sail. Even mono-hulls with good windward performance (deep draft fin keels) motor-sail often. So, I have been very happy choosing a cruising catamaran with mini-keels. I learned that life as a cruiser has different priorities versus racing.
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