Offshore/Blue Water v Coastal Boat

[ilenart]

I’m not sure of your budget and preferred size, but two yachts available in the UK are the Contessa 32 and UFO 34. Both did very well in the 1979 Fastnet, when other yachts were being sunk. Further details in the attached wiki articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contessa_32

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_34

Ilenart

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...this thread still going ??

...I've got 40 some years of floating, bobbing, sailing, going nowhere, etc, on the ocean.

..I don't need a formula to explain to me, what sea motion is all about.
..The only formula that counts is your own seat of the pants formula !!

...It doesn't matter what kind of boat you are on. The ocean moves all the time and your boat, whatever it is, will move with it. Ever drifted on a windless day, with a big swell running ?
It doesn't matter what kind of boat you have, or what the underbody looks like, you are going to rock your brains out. It's as simple as that.

I've had a steel boat, center cockpit, aft cockpit boat, plus sailed on numerous others. Mono's, cats, tri's, I really don't think it makes a hill of beans one way or another.

Sooner or later, you are going take green water over the boat. It may come from the front, the back or the side, it don't matter...you are going to get wet, what does it matter from what direction.

I've had people on my boat throw up in waves, that barely exceeded 6" and others that like to sing in the rain.

This topic is so subjective as to be meaningless. There are thousands of boats out there with thousands of sailors on them. Each and everyone has their own experience, no two the same, and everybody likely to expound on the virtues of their own particular craft.

That's the thing about ocean sailing. Smooth as butter one day, violent as can be the next. Wind, waves, swell, rain, storms, calms, it's all out there, for everybody and every kind of boat.

And that is the beauty of it. There is a boat out there to fit anybody's needs and budget. It can be any design, any length, any draft, any sail configuration and I come back to my original statement...it's YOU, the sailor, that makes the difference !!

Yea, "anti-science" opinions are strong in the sailing community. Fortunately science is not subjective. But if you like something keep doing it, don't let facts get in your way.

[mvweebles]

The Dashew's have a ton of data-backed observations and recommendations developed over 40-50 years of sailing and building - they started with a Columbia 50 back in the early 1970's and worked up to gold-plated sailboats in the 1990's and into gold-plated powerboats in the 2000s, both easily capable of consistent 250 nm day runs. Much of their knowledge is shared for free via PDFs. While clearly their price-point is above all but a few, their concepts are solid and deserve consideration: Fast is Safe. Rather than a full-keeled tank, a well-built rocket-ship is their solution to safe passagemaking.

https://setsail.com/free-books/

Peter

[Mike OReilly]

As someone who cruises with a full-keel boat (a true full keel) I'll just say that like everything, this keel comes with pros and cons. I can also say it's not my first choice. I'd prefer a modified fin, with a skeg-hung rudder. Something more akin to a Valiant, or my previous boat, a Grampian 34.

The main pros of my full keel are tracking abilities, protection of rudder and prop, and general strength. It's also pretty easy to haul out this boat, as it stands easily on its long, wide keel.

The main cons are maneuverability and upwind sailing. Oh, and bottom paint -- there's a lot of bottom to paint .

Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat based solely, or even largely, on the keel design. A boat has to be taken as a package, and there are always pros and cons to each. Having an understanding of how various design elements affect performance is definitely useful, but it's the whole package that needs to be considered. This article cited earlier provides a good overview:


https://www.mahina.com/cruise.html


All this is why comparing individual stats or design elements is fun, but not particularly enlightening. A boat has to be taken as a whole, and why you need compare boats to boats.

I think the best advice is to focus on boats that suite your needs and your wants. Then zero in on those that are well designed, well built and that have been maintained over the years.

[MicHughV]

Just recently I was invited to a house, where the owner is a Porsche-phile, Every room in the house was filled to the brim with Porsche models of every description, insignia's, photo's, flags and what not. His poor wife. I think he had a model of every Porsche ever made in his house. One room had an entire wall dedicated to Porsche models in an elaborate showcase. He could spew every last detail about every year model Porsche ever made.

It goes without saying, there was a Porsche in his garage. Mind you, this is a grown man, not a teenager.

The man could speak about nothing else besides Porsche and there was no point in discussing any other model car with him, it was either Porsche or nothing.

I feel the same way about this thread. For everyone out there, there is their "model" of the perfect boat.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Just recently I was invited to a house, where the owner is a Porsche-phile, Every room in the house was filled to the brim with Porsche models of every description, insignia's, photo's, flags and what not. His poor wife. I think he had a model of every Porsche ever made in his house. One room had an entire wall dedicated to Porsche models in an elaborate showcase. He could spew every last detail about every year model Porsche ever made.

It goes without saying, there was a Porsche in his garage. Mind you, this is a grown man, not a teenager.

The man could speak about nothing else besides Porsche and there was no point in discussing any other model car with him, it was either Porsche or nothing.

I feel the same way about this thread. For everyone out there, there is their "model" of the perfect boat.

Exactly, if I wasn't able to handle the fact that many people value anecdotes over the writings of naval architects and will never change their minds, I would never have rejoined this forum.

[MicHughV]

...ja nee, swarrie...dit is so

[barnakiel]

Well.


As one who owns and has EXTENSIVELY sailed one of the boats that have a relatively good Brewer's Motion Comfort Ratio ... I can only VERY STRONGLY disagree with the ratio being of any practical value.



Maybe Ted Brewer meant boats anchored in a flat lake?


Or perhaps boats sailing where nobody today wants to be (N Atlantic in the winter;-)


Or maybe Ted Brewer made the ratio to boost sales of his own designs?


etc.


Buying another boat, I would completely disregard the ratio. What one actually wants is to get a comparable ride on a specific design (and match the boat with one's specific and individual comfort requirements).



barnakiel

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...this thread still going ??

...I've got 40 some years of floating, bobbing, sailing, going nowhere, etc, on the ocean.

..I don't need a formula to explain to me, what sea motion is all about.
..The only formula that counts is your own seat of the pants formula !!

...It doesn't matter what kind of boat you are on. The ocean moves all the time and your boat, whatever it is, will move with it. Ever drifted on a windless day, with a big swell running ?
It doesn't matter what kind of boat you have, or what the underbody looks like, you are going to rock your brains out. It's as simple as that.

I've had a steel boat, center cockpit, aft cockpit boat, plus sailed on numerous others. Mono's, cats, tri's, I really don't think it makes a hill of beans one way or another.

Sooner or later, you are going take green water over the boat. It may come from the front, the back or the side, it don't matter...you are going to get wet, what does it matter from what direction.

I've had people on my boat throw up in waves, that barely exceeded 6" and others that like to sing in the rain.

This topic is so subjective as to be meaningless. There are thousands of boats out there with thousands of sailors on them. Each and everyone has their own experience, no two the same, and everybody likely to expound on the virtues of their own particular craft.

That's the thing about ocean sailing. Smooth as butter one day, violent as can be the next. Wind, waves, swell, rain, storms, calms, it's all out there, for everybody and every kind of boat.

And that is the beauty of it. There is a boat out there to fit anybody's needs and budget. It can be any design, any length, any draft, any sail configuration and I come back to my original statement...it's YOU, the sailor, that makes the difference !!

Wot ^^^^He^^^^ Sed..

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...this thread still going ??

...I've got 40 some years of floating, bobbing, sailing, going nowhere, etc, on the ocean.

..I don't need a formula to explain to me, what sea motion is all about.
..The only formula that counts is your own seat of the pants formula !!

...It doesn't matter what kind of boat you are on. The ocean moves all the time and your boat, whatever it is, will move with it. Ever drifted on a windless day, with a big swell running ?
It doesn't matter what kind of boat you have, or what the underbody looks like, you are going to rock your brains out. It's as simple as that.

I've had a steel boat, center cockpit, aft cockpit boat, plus sailed on numerous others. Mono's, cats, tri's, I really don't think it makes a hill of beans one way or another.

Sooner or later, you are going take green water over the boat. It may come from the front, the back or the side, it don't matter...you are going to get wet, what does it matter from what direction.

I've had people on my boat throw up in waves, that barely exceeded 6" and others that like to sing in the rain.

This topic is so subjective as to be meaningless. There are thousands of boats out there with thousands of sailors on them. Each and everyone has their own experience, no two the same, and everybody likely to expound on the virtues of their own particular craft.

That's the thing about ocean sailing. Smooth as butter one day, violent as can be the next. Wind, waves, swell, rain, storms, calms, it's all out there, for everybody and every kind of boat.

And that is the beauty of it. There is a boat out there to fit anybody's needs and budget. It can be any design, any length, any draft, any sail configuration and I come back to my original statement...it's YOU, the sailor, that makes the difference !!

images (1).jpg Views: 64 Size: 31.5 KB ID: 215925" style="margin: 2px" />

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

As one who owns and has EXTENSIVELY sailed one of the boats that have a relatively good Brewer's Motion Comfort Ratio ... I can only VERY STRONGLY disagree with the ratio being of any practical value.

Ted Brewer made up the Motion Comfort Ratio with his tongue firmly in his cheek as a joke. *sigh* I don' t understand why anyone thinks it has any value.

[barnakiel]

From where I stand, one can also think of blue water offshore capable things in the following way:


Class A: one time capable,
Class B: built for repeated, long term, offshore use.


They say you only need a parachute to jump out of a plane twice.



Or think of a disposable plastic cup vs. a proper ceramic mug with your initials on it. Both can be used to drink coffee. But only the mug will do in the long run.



So it is a design thing. Virtually any boat is fine to cross an ocean one time, some will make a number of safe passages too. But fewer designs are meant to provide a lifetime of safe offshore use.


And even the out and out design will show signs of deterioration as we age. Just that this deterioration will not be life threatening.

Cheers,
b.

[MicHughV]

There was a time when I did the Daytona to Bermuda race.

Race entrants ran the gamut of ocean bred racers, your basic mom and pop cruiser and even small river/lake day sailors.

I don't think there was or is a particular style or brand of boat capable of doing this trip or not. Those little boats were often the first over the line. Crew slept under a tarp or the stars...and used a bucket for a head and an ice chest for food.

Webb Chiles has circumnavigated in an open boat...and his latest trip .......a Moore 24 day sailor.

Sure, a nice decked out modern 45 footer with all the bells and whistles would be my choice of steed, but that is not to say others can't do it.

[Sofa King Fishy]

I own and live aboard a Catalina 42 with a shoal draft keep. It’s a fantastic live aboard & a dream to single hand for coastal sailing. I just got back from a 2 week blue water passage on a Swan 46- a hardcore ocean boat. The key differences that hit me: My Catalina is bigger below, the cockpit is waaaay more comfortable, and all systems are simple to maintain. The Swan is tighter below decks, with handholds all over, and the dialogue between bunks, tables, fixtures, etc. is ideal for bracing yourself underway. The Swan has an 8’ draft- as a result, it tracks like a train in heavy weather, and punches through big seas. My Catalina could handle those conditions, but It wouldn’t be easy, and would be terribly uncomfortable. In short, I’d rather live on my Catalina, and enjoy single handing her, but should I seek to sail for any period of time trans ocean, I’d look for a heavier boat with a deeper keel, and a tighter interior.

[SV__Grace]

You threw me off a bit by including "coastal or weekend" in your question. We are full time coastal cruisers and our needs are very different from the weekenders.

Optimum boat choice depends upon considerations such as-

- Your cruising grounds- some cruisers are world travelers, others prefer the tropics, others like myself prefer the high latitudes. Our boat is built for high latitudes.

- Coastal vs. Offshore passages- we are full time cruisers but my wife does not want to cross oceans, which is fine as we can coastal cruise for decades before exhausting our cruising options, which includes the entire North and South American continents, Alaska, Carribean, etc. This means, for example, we don't need a steering windvane or offshore liferaft.

- Living on the hook vs. harbor hopping marinas- If spending most of the time in port in marinas you don't need a water maker, etc. Living on the hook, which we love, requires great ground tackle, a reliable way to get to shore and ferry provisions, etc. If you harbor hop you can get away with just a kayak.

- Fast or slow? Some sailors are racers at heart and detest full keels, high windage, heavy displacement, etc. I love slow and prefer comfort and safety over speed.

- Single handing vs couple vs family + pets? We are a couple and it's important for my wife to be able to manage the boat if I'm incapacitated. We will never have pets, but those who do have to plan for that. A family can be happy in a 36 footer for a weekend or a week, but full time?

- The details- in another thread the OP ended up realizing that he preferred a sugar scoop transom as easily getting on and off the dinghy was a high priority for him. Our boat? 7 feet from aft deck to waterline where the boarding ladder is mounted. We love our boat but it's not for him! And there are many other details such as aft cockpit vs center cockpit (we love our center cockpit), single helm vs. dual helm pilothouse (which we love), raised salon with large windows (which we love), ketch vs. sloop, deep keel vs. shoal keel (sometimes we long for a shorter keel but don't want to sacrifice stability in heavy seas), etc.

I'm sure there's more, but it really helps to have significant experience with boats and boating so you can match your needs with your next boat.