Offshore/Blue Water v Coastal Boat

[cooper1991]

So that sounds positive but what's the downside? Speed, poor efficiency upwind or cumbersome to manouvre?

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

So that sounds positive but what's the downside? Speed, poor efficiency upwind or cumbersome to manouvre?

all of the above

full length keel = outdated thinking

cheers,

[cooper1991]

What's the best, safest or lowest maintenance configuration then? I'm more interested in storm survival on long passages rather than speed.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

What's the best, safest or lowest maintenance configuration then? I'm more interested in storm survival on long passages rather than speed.

People tend to defend the choice they made themselves regardless of evidence. I've given my point of view and others theirs. I think if you want further info then you should read the numerous books on the subject.

What works for ocean racing is not necessarily the best thing for cruisers, despite the new boat market being flooded with ocean racing boat knock-offs.

A good example of this is the near vertical profile of modern bows - the only reason this exists is so that ocean racing boats can get more LWL and still fit into the LOA category they are designed for. The only advantage this gives to cruisers is cheaper marina fees for a the same LWL as larger boats.

[Captn_Black]

If you want to learn the principles of boat design and make a more informed decision, I recommend Bruce Roberts free ebook on boat building, which is available on his website (no affiliation, I just like it)

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

I think it is generally accepted that a long keel is safer for cruising, especially when used in combination with an autopilot.

I don't think this is 'generally accepted' at all. Our experience in a circumnavigation is that long keel boats were in the distinct minority. What you need for an autopilot - electric or vane is a boat that you can balance effectively. These come in all shapes and sizes with long keels or not.

[Captn_Black]

If you can stomach the fact that he is clearly an aspiring paperback detective novel writer, this book goes into considerably more depth on the matter, and includes the mathematical formula you need to work out the details yourself - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ature_of_Boats

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by AiniA

I don't think this is 'generally accepted' at all.

I see that, I should have expected no less on this forum
My opinion remains though.
And for me "generally" is based on my talking to the cruisers I meet around the world, and the books I have read, rather than on forums.

[ilenart]

Rather than Roberts I would suggest other designers such as Van De Stadt or Robert Perry, particular his book “Yacht Design According to Perry”.

For an alternative opinion of Roberts designs refer to the summary below and the link attached for the full version (from another forum). This is from the yacht designer I previously mentioned.

For disclosure, I used to own a Roberts Classic 45, and would not buy a Roberts again. Only my opinion.

Ilenart

Bruce Roberts is a popular designer of off the shelf plans for amatuer builders. He has probably solds more stock plans than any individual designer. While he has done some reasonably good designs, I am not a big fan of his work. While I think that for the most part Roberts designs conservative simple boats, by any reasonable standard, they are very dated and many of his designs produce just plain bad boats. He has two popular design series, one based on Slocum''s Spray, and the other is a bit more modern. Most of his more modern designs seem to be based on 1960''s and 1970''s thinking, and the science of yacht design has greatly advanced since then in terms of understanding motion comfort and seaworthiness. To me Bruce Roberts designs generally do not seem to take advantage of these lessons. Roberts has refined some of his earlier designs producing some boats that I think are better designs than they were in thier original form. A good example of that is the boat he calls a 434 that someone built as a long range single-hander looks like a nice boat.

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...ing-yacht.html

[Captn_Black]

I think I can offer one further opinion here, that hopefully is not too disputed, that being that pre-1990's fibreglass boats are of stronger construction as manufactures had not yet realised that they can get away with making thinner hulls.

[valhalla360]

How much time do you actually plan to be on a long passage?

A lifted jeep with monster tires will do better getting thru back country trails than most crossover SUVs...but if 95% of your use is commuting 10miles on a freeway with only an occasional trip to the cabin, the crossover SUV is probably the better choice.

So get a boat that is well built and well maintained but unless ocean crossing is your primary use, once the boat is reasonably seaworthy, give a lot of thought into the downsides of a dedicated ocean crossing boat for the 95% of time you are coastal cruising and at anchor.

The last 30yrs have seen the majority of pleasure boat round ocean crossings. Almost no full keel boats have been built during that time frame. It's also been the safest time to do ocean crossings in pleasure boats by a wide margin.

PS: While possible...on typical open ocean crossings, the odds of hitting objects is really low. It's coastal cruising where hard things are likely to be encountered. So unless planning to do arctic cruising, once the hull is reasonably solid, that's low on the priority list.

[cooper1991]

Ultimately I want to cross Atlantic and Pacific. Time is not a constraint. Initially I'd go around Scotland, Ireland and west coast of England, then set off for Philippines and take 1-2 years to get there. Once there maybe 2-3 years of sailing round the 7000 islands of the Philippines then sell.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

Ultimately I want to cross Atlantic and Pacific. Time is not a constraint. Initially I'd go around Scotland, Ireland and west coast of England, then set off for Philippines and take 1-2 years to get there. Once there maybe 2-3 years of sailing round the 7000 islands of the Philippines then sell.

So maybe 1 or 2 long passages (greater than 4 days) per year and the rest is coastal cruising.

So yes, I would want a solid well maintained boat...not a chance I would consider an antiquated full keel boat unless money was the driving force and that was all I could afford.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

How much time do you actually plan to be on a long passage?

A lifted jeep with monster tires will do better getting thru back country trails than most crossover SUVs...but if 95% of your use is commuting 10miles on a freeway with only an occasional trip to the cabin, the crossover SUV is probably the better choice.

So get a boat that is well built and well maintained but unless ocean crossing is your primary use, once the boat is reasonably seaworthy, give a lot of thought into the downsides of a dedicated ocean crossing boat for the 95% of time you are coastal cruising and at anchor.

The last 30yrs have seen the majority of pleasure boat round ocean crossings. Almost no full keel boats have been built during that time frame. It's also been the safest time to do ocean crossings in pleasure boats by a wide margin.

PS: While possible...on typical open ocean crossings, the odds of hitting objects is really low. It's coastal cruising where hard things are likely to be encountered. So unless planning to do arctic cruising, once the hull is reasonably solid, that's low on the priority list.

Fair points, as stated in other threads, and this one, your ship is largely personal preference. Good seamanship (and the preparation that comes with it) will get you through difficult situations regardless of your vessel.

[MicHughV]

...this thread still going ??

...I've got 40 some years of floating, bobbing, sailing, going nowhere, etc, on the ocean.

..I don't need a formula to explain to me, what sea motion is all about.
..The only formula that counts is your own seat of the pants formula !!

...It doesn't matter what kind of boat you are on. The ocean moves all the time and your boat, whatever it is, will move with it. Ever drifted on a windless day, with a big swell running ?
It doesn't matter what kind of boat you have, or what the underbody looks like, you are going to rock your brains out. It's as simple as that.

I've had a steel boat, center cockpit, aft cockpit boat, plus sailed on numerous others. Mono's, cats, tri's, I really don't think it makes a hill of beans one way or another.

Sooner or later, you are going take green water over the boat. It may come from the front, the back or the side, it don't matter...you are going to get wet, what does it matter from what direction.

I've had people on my boat throw up in waves, that barely exceeded 6" and others that like to sing in the rain.

This topic is so subjective as to be meaningless. There are thousands of boats out there with thousands of sailors on them. Each and everyone has their own experience, no two the same, and everybody likely to expound on the virtues of their own particular craft.

That's the thing about ocean sailing. Smooth as butter one day, violent as can be the next. Wind, waves, swell, rain, storms, calms, it's all out there, for everybody and every kind of boat.

And that is the beauty of it. There is a boat out there to fit anybody's needs and budget. It can be any design, any length, any draft, any sail configuration and I come back to my original statement...it's YOU, the sailor, that makes the difference !!