Offshore/Blue Water v Coastal Boat

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

Sounds pretty sensible. Oh, wait - I just noticed you have a 1979 boat - an IOR boat! You're surely going to die!

Getting a little more serious, I notice a few posters seem pretty fixated on calculated values for boats. Disp/length, OK, that I can see, although typical numbers have evolved over time. SA/disp is already getting a little questionable because typical numbers for masthead boats with overlapping jibs are not the same as for fractional boats with nonoverlapping jibs. BTW, displacement figures for production boats are often a fiction anyhow, so garbage in, garbage out.

Things like capsize screening ratios and motion comfort ratios are no more than somebody's pitiful attempt to quantify complex issues, that a Naval Architect might struggle to pin down, with simplistic calculations involving easily available numbers. They are at best meaningless, and more likely deceptive.
If a Contessa 33 is disqualified from "blue-water" status because of its capsize screening ratio, what does that tell you?

I agree. The designer means more than the numbers. The numbers are far too often meaningless and deceitful at best. Don't be afraid of better sailing boats than the traditional full keel Water boats">blue water boats. We have accurate weather forecasting and global communications now making slow poorly performing boats obsolete except with the traditional worshipers. More than likely you won't pick your forever boat the fist go round so don't agonize over the choice.

[LarryDW]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...this thread still going ??

...I've got 40 some years of floating, bobbing, sailing, going nowhere, etc, on the ocean.

..I don't need a formula to explain to me, what sea motion is all about.
..The only formula that counts is your own seat of the pants formula !!

...It doesn't matter what kind of boat you are on. The ocean moves all the time and your boat, whatever it is, will move with it. Ever drifted on a windless day, with a big swell running ?
It doesn't matter what kind of boat you have, or what the underbody looks like, you are going to rock your brains out. It's as simple as that.

I've had a steel boat, center cockpit, aft cockpit boat, plus sailed on numerous others. Mono's, cats, tri's, I really don't think it makes a hill of beans one way or another.

Sooner or later, you are going take green water over the boat. It may come from the front, the back or the side, it don't matter...you are going to get wet, what does it matter from what direction.

I've had people on my boat throw up in waves, that barely exceeded 6" and others that like to sing in the rain.

This topic is so subjective as to be meaningless. There are thousands of boats out there with thousands of sailors on them. Each and everyone has their own experience, no two the same, and everybody likely to expound on the virtues of their own particular craft.

That's the thing about ocean sailing. Smooth as butter one day, violent as can be the next. Wind, waves, swell, rain, storms, calms, it's all out there, for everybody and every kind of boat.

And that is the beauty of it. There is a boat out there to fit anybody's needs and budget. It can be any design, any length, any draft, any sail configuration and I come back to my original statement...it's YOU, the sailor, that makes the difference !!

Well said!

[Fore and Aft]

The smallest yacht I have seen that circumnavigated was Serge Testa's 12 foot
alloy fin keeler.
With all the yachts I have surveyed I really think it's a bit of luck and big balls that helps make a blue water yacht. MicHughV said it well.
Cheers
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20568700-500-days

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

The smallest yacht I have seen that circumnavigated was Serge Testa's 12 foot
alloy fin keeler.
With all the yachts I have surveyed I really think it's a bit of luck and big balls that helps make a blue water yacht. MicHughV said it well.
Cheers
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20568700-500-days

That’s just a smidgeon bigger than my tender. The main reason people do these voyages is to get into the record books.

Interesting how there is a perception that a boat has to be “built for ocean crossings”. My boat was built specifically as a charter boat for the Caribbean and AFAIK, most of those built originally went there for that purpose. I know mine did. I’ve done many a voyaging mile in her and reckon she’s as good as most, better than a lot.

[daletournier]

This debate never ends, naval architecture, building methods and building materials advance but the debate doesn't seem to.

Only today I had a US guy come to my boat as I've got some jerry cans to sell. He made some negative remarks regarding Catalinas (I have a 470) as he was buying my cans. I found it hilarious that he was buying extra jerry cans from me to increase is fuel capacity to 200 gallons while questioning my boats sailing capabilities...lol. He proudly told me his Passports gone around the world (not with him) while totally discounting that my Catalina is on its second Pacific crossing and has circumnavigated, also totally unaware as he criticizing my boats sailing performance that we just averaged 8.1knots over the last 3 days of a 3400nm passage and have never needed 200 gallons of fuel.

Most that have opinions regarding bluewater boats know very little about what they are talking about, pub stool gossip at best, also this forums very US centric, Europeans often have a totally different view of what makes a good bluewater cruiser.

[Brews]

A Catalina 470 is a big boat. I would expect it to do ok.

[daletournier]

This little thing recently sailed from Panama to French polynesia, I dont know how big it is but standing next to you it seemed extremely small...Frenchman of course..lol.

[Fore and Aft]

Your right about the European designs Dale. I always say to myself that if only the French spoke and wrote in English we would see so many more of their designs.
I think the guy with that little yacht sunk the sister ship in the Atlantic? There is a great little video of him sailing, floating around on the net some where?
Cheers

[barnakiel]

When looking at small boats that made this or that, it could be an easy mistake to equal any boat that made it with a proper offshore boat. By 'proper offshore' I define a boat designed for just that.


A PET empty bottle will easily make it from Africa to the Cariibbean. Yet we do not call such a bottle 'an offshore boat'.


Can we cross ocean in less than perfect boats? Yes.


Can we sail offshore in non 'proper offshore' boats. Off course.


Man can do as they please. Man does as their incommon sense and budget dictates.



Serge Testa's boat (unpronouncable) is a small offshore boat. An Albin Vega is not!


Furthermore, it is also a common mistake to equal some specific technical solution (e.g. a deck stepped mast) with offshore or inshore. If it only were that simple.


An offshore boat can then have no ballast, no skeg, no small quickly drained cockpit, another boat can have all the things, and not qualify.


It is all a very broad subject and NOT a vague one at all.


From aboard a small and non-offshore boat that has sailed offshore,

b.

[hpeer]

This book has a chapter dedicated to the topic. He is focused on the singlehanded but the principals can be adapted to other boats. And, as a 2 handed crew we are mostly sailing single handed. So there is that.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0877423598...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

[barnakiel]

I hope you do not mind my creative theft of some text from a poster above. I want to give his opinions my own twist.

(My perspective is that of a dinghy sailor who has sailed offshore, mostly in a small boat. I also have what I consider extensive (about 15 seasons) experience outfitting and managing (=repairs, maintenance, upgrades, etc.) ocean going boats, mostly big ones.)

The following I consider some of the top 10 (or 12) DESIRABLE traits of an offshore boat:

1. An easily driven hull.
2. A simple and efficient sail-plan.
3. Low stress structure design, utilizing materials' intrinsic strengths.
4. Motion-friendliness (minimum rolling downwind and bashing upwind).
5. Safe and comfortable cockpit and deck.
6. Outstanding protection from the elements (sun, wind, spray).
7. Indifference to getting wiped out (and more than once).
8. An easy and safe, in any conditions, cooking area.
9. An easy, safe and comfortable head and shower area.
10. Storm-proof, safe and comfortable berths.
11. High level of self-sailing ability (APs, windvanes, etc.)
12. High level of fall-back, back-up, optimization.

Surprisingly, many of these features are found on good offshore racing boats but very few on offshore rated (e.g. EU Offshore category) cruising boats. In fact I will risk the position that a typical offshore racing boat is a way better, safer and comfortable offshore boat than most offshore cruising boats are.


Even worse, many European designs seem to excel at taking over the least important racing features and implementing them as USP in their mass produced charter-bound designs. Think of two wheels, reverse bows and large flat areas (alas, executed in flimsy polyester resin and glass rather than in carbon/epoxy/twaron vacuum bagging technology ...)



Etc.



This much said, some offshore cruising designs are absolutely outstanding, and can perfectly blend the best of both worlds.


Cheers,
b.

[barnakiel]

An example of a racing-based design that, optimized for cruising, becomes a near-perfect offshore boat:


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/swan-38-ss


Downside: rolls like a pig sailing downwind.


b.

[barnakiel]

An example of racing-based design that, optimised for cruising, becomes a near perfect offshore boat:


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cigale-14


Downside: Crew too exposed in hard upwind work.


b.

[barnakiel]

An example of an absolutely stunning offshore ability in cruising boat design:


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bougainvillaea-54


Downside: I cannot afford one. ;-)


Cheers,
barnakiel

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

An example of a racing-based design that, optimized for cruising, becomes a near-perfect offshore boat:


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/swan-38-ss


Downside: rolls like a pig sailing downwind.


b.

Have to disagree, note the 6 jibs listed on the saildata diagram. When cruising you are either constantly underpowered, or overpowered. Or constantly changing jibs.


Plus the IOR pinched stern means a lack of living space below. Compare to the difference of a modern 37 ft world cruising yacht.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hallberg-rassy-372

Ilenart