Offshore/Blue Water v Coastal Boat

[hpeer]

^. I think that’s a really good list.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by ilenart

Have to disagree, note the 6 jibs listed on the saildata diagram. When cruising you are either constantly underpowered, or overpowered. Or constantly changing jibs.


Plus the IOR pinched stern means a lack of living space below. Compare to the difference of a modern 37 ft world cruising yacht.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hallberg-rassy-372

Ilenart

Ilenart:



Please look at my introducing sentence. It says: "An example of a racing-based design that, optimized for cruising, becomes a near-perfect offshore boat". By that I mean the boat as is shown, is not optimised yet. Maybe I did not make this point clear enough.



The design year is (72). The design purpose is (racing). This is why it says '6 jibs'.


Today jibs are flown from furlers. This reduces the wardrobe, while keeping most of performance. That's what is meant by "optimizing". A mid-way solution, deployed also in HR372 and their other boats.



And what you rightly note as an IOR pinched stern holds two single pilot berths - one each way with the sleeping heads very close to the boats center. Which are perfect in the seaway. Something a HR 372 badly lacks ...


The same IOR stern is part of the rolling me gently (well, not quite so gently, frankly) on long downwind passages. Something I absolutely HATE.



Much as a HR 372 is a fantastic boat that sails well, is safe and easy to sail, and has 99% of the qualities I would desire in an offshore boat.


My way to offset this story is the following: HR372 with its modern hull and fat ass will not roll downwind as much as an IOR hull does, and so - to some extent - it eliminates the need for a proper sea berth!


If you paid the bill and then asked me to chose only one of these boats ... I would be truly split. HR really takes advantage of modern design techniques (load modelling, CAD plug building, etc). Some areas on the S&S boat are overbuilt and if they were re-done today, could be done stronger and lighter, again improving that design. But of course we are not doing this.



Off course, there are many other takes that are valid, I am not preaching this or that boat is "perfect and only". far from that. Much rather sharing the designs that I know, have sailed on or worked on over last 20 years or so. The ones that clicked many boxes.



I followed a HR372 progress during one of the ARC rallies for cruisers. It was very very impressive. And who does not like a boat that sails well.

Cheers,
b.

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Ilenart:



Please look at my introducing sentence. It says: "An example of a racing-based design that, optimized for cruising, becomes a near-perfect offshore boat". By that I mean the boat as is shown, is not optimised yet. Maybe I did not make this point clear enough.



The design year is (72). The design purpose is (racing). This is why it says '6 jibs'.


Today jibs are flown from furlers. This reduces the wardrobe, while keeping most of performance. That's what is meant by "optimizing". A mid-way solution, deployed also in HR372 and their other boats.



And what you rightly note as an IOR pinched stern holds two single pilot berths - one each way with the sleeping heads very close to the boats center. Which are perfect in the seaway. Something a HR 372 badly lacks ...


The same IOR stern is part of the rolling me gently (well, not quite so gently, frankly) on long downwind passages. Something I absolutely HATE.



Much as a HR 372 is a fantastic boat that sails well, is safe and easy to sail, and has 99% of the qualities I would desire in an offshore boat.


My way to offset this story is the following: HR372 with its modern hull and fat ass will not roll downwind as much as an IOR hull does, and so - to some extent - it eliminates the need for a proper sea berth!


If you paid the bill and then asked me to chose only one of these boats ... I would be truly split. HR really takes advantage of modern design techniques (load modelling, CAD plug building, etc). Some areas on the S&S boat are overbuilt and if they were re-done today, could be done stronger and lighter, again improving that design. But of course we are not doing this.



Off course, there are many other takes that are valid, I am not preaching this or that boat is "perfect and only". far from that. Much rather sharing the designs that I know, have sailed on or worked on over last 20 years or so. The ones that clicked many boxes.



I followed a HR372 progress during one of the ARC rallies for cruisers. It was very very impressive. And who does not like a boat that sails well.

Cheers,
b.

No worries, understand your points above. My last yacht was a UFO 34, so yep lots of headsails and pinched stern meant tight pipe berths at the back. I also ran a furler on my UFO 34 and mainly ran the No 2 jib when cruising. This meant less than 7knots I was underpowered, 8-15 knots was fine and plus +15 knots I was overpowered. Furling the jib was fine reaching or downwind but would ruin the pointing when going upwind. Then it would be a matter of changing to No 3, 4 or 5, not fun in 25 knots.

In contrast my modern design HR 40 with the smaller jib means the same jib to around 25 knots and furling the main instead.

What I found that there was a limit to the amount of “optimising” you could do to an old racing design. Plus any upgrades you do you would be lucky to get back 10% of cost on resale. My personal experience was receiving minus 50%.

Ilenart

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Ilenart:

Please look at my introducing sentence. It says: "An example of a racing-based design that, optimized for cruising, becomes a near-perfect offshore boat". By that I mean the boat as is shown, is not optimised yet. Maybe I did not make this point clear enough.

The design year is (72). The design purpose is (racing). This is why it says '6 jibs'.

Today jibs are flown from furlers. This reduces the wardrobe, while keeping most of performance. That's what is meant by "optimizing". A mid-way solution, deployed also in HR372 and their other boats.

And what you rightly note as an IOR pinched stern holds two single pilot berths - one each way with the sleeping heads very close to the boats center. Which are perfect in the seaway. Something a HR 372 badly lacks ...

The same IOR stern is part of the rolling me gently (well, not quite so gently, frankly) on long downwind passages. Something I absolutely HATE.

Much as a HR 372 is a fantastic boat that sails well, is safe and easy to sail, and has 99% of the qualities I would desire in an offshore boat.

My way to offset this story is the following: HR372 with its modern hull and fat ass will not roll downwind as much as an IOR hull does, and so - to some extent - it eliminates the need for a proper sea berth!

If you paid the bill and then asked me to chose only one of these boats ... I would be truly split. HR really takes advantage of modern design techniques (load modelling, CAD plug building, etc). Some areas on the S&S boat are overbuilt and if they were re-done today, could be done stronger and lighter, again improving that design. But of course we are not doing this.

Off course, there are many other takes that are valid, I am not preaching this or that boat is "perfect and only". far from that. Much rather sharing the designs that I know, have sailed on or worked on over last 20 years or so. The ones that clicked many boxes.

I followed a HR372 progress during one of the ARC rallies for cruisers. It was very very impressive. And who does not like a boat that sails well.

Cheers,
b.

Slightly wrong Barnekiel,

Pilot berths are midships, above the settees. Wide IOR designs with pinched sterns still have plenty of room for pilot berths. Also, since the late 70's designs allowed roomy sterns and more berths. My boat had, when originally produced in 1979, two settees, two pilot berths, two upper quarter berths, and a wide aft cabin berth for two to four persons, depending out how friendly they were. So, pinched stern, NO. That is 1979, 40 years ago!

Next, six jibs is not what you use on an ocean passage. A racing design, such as an IOR boat from the 70's-90's will sail very well with one jib, about 85%. No need for the other five unless you are racing around the Solent with 10 crew. Put that 85% on a furler and you have a very simple boat to sail VERY fast.

Rolling downwind, So, designs have advanced since the 70's. More modern boats are not so subject to that "rolling downwind" as you think. Well, all boat roll. Boats overpowered by too much sail area roll worse. So on your IOR boat or on your 37' full keel cruising boat, set a course appropriate for the wave direction and keep the boat happy (not overpowered) and your rolling will be pretty normal, no matter what boat you are on.

Sea berth: Any ocean going boat will be more accommodating to crew if it has some berths amidships for the off watch, HR37 or IOR 37. My really good friend on a Westsail 43 thought he could only sleep if he laid on the cabin sole, the rolling was so bad. HINT: It's not the boat.

[NormanMartin]

Another 2 cents....
I was a charter captain and cruising instructor for many years and a racer before that. That means I have sailed a lot of coastal boats offshore and offshore boats coastal. From my experience, contemporary coastal designs have flat bottoms and are hard to sail offshore because of pounding. They are hard on crew. Offshore boats are easy on the crew beacause they don't pound as much but cozier below.

Still, it has a lot more to do with the preparation of boat and crew than choice of the boat. I focus on simplicity, safe stowage, good berthing, and so on. I delivered what they hired me to deliver and then carefully prepared the craft and crew.

Aside: reading Jerome Rand's Sailing Into Oblivion about his RTW in a Westsail 32. Compare and contrast to Tania Aebi's boat and then to the contemporary magazine reviews of "best boats."

Norm
Cape Cod

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by ilenart

(...)



What I found that there was a limit to the amount of “optimising” you could do to an old racing design. Plus any upgrades you do you would be lucky to get back 10% of cost on resale. My personal experience was receiving minus 50%.

Ilenart

Off course. Just think of the number of winches and their distribution on a typical IOR era racer!


Even new racers, like Class 40 or a Figaro, still have so much twist and pinch trimming devices that would render cruising very much akin to precise needlework - something that goes 100% against what I preach - keep it all very simple, while retaining most of performance.


Another area where these boats are very hard to modify is the dodger / cockpit area. Racers are built for excellent visibility all round and the racing sailor does want to feel the wind in their hair. Now this is 100% opposite with what an offshore cruiser will want most of the time - max protection from sun, spray, wind and noise.


It is so much easier to achieve good results, when a design is meant for cruising from the very draftsboard. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7EHggI7ikQ

https://www.jpdick-yachts.com/


https://www.atlanticyachts.nl/home/


Though different, they do take up plenty of good racing ideas and implement them reasonably into a cruising boat.


I consider both designs proper offshore boats.



Cheers,
b.

[MicHughV]

I gotta go with the shade thing...once you've had a few cancerous spots knifed out of your head....shade from the sun takes on a new meaning....

[barnakiel]

"Slightly wrong Barnekiel,"


Pilot berths are midships, above the settees.


YES. But the ones in the stern section are safer and lower.


Next, six jibs is not what you use on an ocean passage.


YES. Discussed above. Today there is / are furlers.


Rolling downwind, (...) Well, all boat roll. Boats overpowered by too much sail area roll worse. So on your IOR boat or on your 37' full keel cruising boat, set a course appropriate for the wave direction and keep the boat happy (not overpowered) and your rolling will be pretty normal, no matter what boat you are on.


Well. UNDERPOWERED boats roll even more.


And no, not all boats roll downwind. You clearly have not sailed a Cigale, have you? Look at the JP54 too - one of those toys that do not roll downwind either.


HINT: It's not the boat.


HA! GOT ME!



;-)



Yes. I hate rolling downwind. Likely a notch above many other cruisers. The point is we make some passages that are basically 99% downwind, in a small (pre-IOR) hull. Hence my likely exaggerated dislike of any rolly business!


Cheers,
b.

[brycem]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

A final thing I should add, is a back up to the steering system. I read a lot of Marine Accident Investigation Reports, and the primary cause for sailboats being abandoned at sea is steering failure. I have an emergency tiller if my mechanical wheel steering fails, and I am soon building an auxiliary rudder + flettner wind-vane pilot.

Sailing my newly purchased CT 34 home after her positively glowing survey, my rudder cable slipped off a pulley at about half starboard rudder while I was navigating a 50' wide channel with a hard offshore beam wind pushing me onto rocks :-) Not knowing what the problem was yet, I put it in reverse and fitted the backup tiller which was similarly prevented from functioning by the jammed cable, finally throwing out an anchor too late to prevent ending up on the rocks :-) If it had slipped off at almost any other point in the cruise I would've had the 10min it too to fix it!