Full Keel Sailboats

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

And it's great to see a tiller on a 36' boat...….

43' boat

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Delfin

We never raced Anthem. We cruised in her. That said, anytime two sailboats are headed in the same direction there is a race on, and I never felt at a disadvantage to lighter, more modern designs, mostly because I didn't find it all that difficult to close the gap, or widen it once ahead. Perhaps it is because my boat on a 31.5' waterline carried about 60 ft2 less than your 44 foot boat. Maybe it's because whenever I was as fast or faster than a lighter boat of the same size it was because the other boat's captain wasn't a good sailor. Who knows, and who cares. No doubt I'd lose in the Saturday yacht club matches, but over some distance, not quite as likely. If one concludes that a hull design that takes first, second and third place in a long distance race isn't that great for sailing long distances it speaks to confirmation bias, not yacht design, and that was really my point.

My opinion on the Rustler 36 is based on its design. I'm no navel architect but I trust my eye and that boat just does not look good. Yes they won a race 1,2,3 but against what? And my bias is not against full keel boats, just bad looking boats. Now I'll admit your Cape George was a nice looking boat.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by navdi

Off topic but I loved watching this video, thanks for sharing.
I don't think I can ever swim untethered beside a moving boat

I think you (and I) could at 29 as he was at the time, but when we get older, we think about all the possibilities of things that could go wrong

I also see it here on CF. Folks are always way over cautious as I am on here but once on the boat, I go forward untethered all the time 10-15 miles from shore in most weathers

Maybe I'm thinking I can make it to land if I fall but when I'm doing it I know I can depend on myself especially since I've been on boats since I was 7 years old which I think helps but owning a boat at 16 and using it a lot does teach you many things at a young age

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

43' boat

Very nice!

Btw, what are you playing with down there in the cockpit while Judy is doing all the work?

[Panope]

I am now employed at the Cape George factory, doing a MAJOR refit on a 36. Haven't sailed aboard her yet, but what a ship!

I'm happy to answer questions about how these great boats are built.

Steve

[malbert73]

My prior Luders 33 was fast and my current Tartan 40 is much faster. But both are great cruising boats and I have had equal fun cruising and sailing both. Actually the Luders with the tiller (I took out wheel) was slightly more fun sometimes. The big benefit in the Tartan is waterline and going to weather- and of course the ability to maneuver in reverse

[dfelsent]

Open 60s have tillers. And a super light helm.

And in racing in super light air and flat water it is a sail area to wetted surface contest.
In heavy air it is a waterline length contest.
Otherwise it’s in between.

Ratings are an average. Assuming skilled sailors.
One boat I had rated 205 and I passed a well sailed boat rated 60. Light air. Boat speeds in the less than one knot territory.
Yes my bottom was sanded to 600 grit and hard paint and new sails.
I don’t do that any more. [emoji1]

[oregonian]

Hello, There are many interesting comments on this thread. I would like to add another. Wingssail has said how he really likes to sail. That is why he has the boat that he does. I too fall into that group. As a delivery skipper with over 160 sail boats delivered, and counting, I have experiences with boats from 70’ ULDB’s to 25’ pop top cal’s. Most, of course, are fin keeled. I specialize in the smaller sizes with 29’ to 40’ making up about 80% of my work. It’s no secret that the different hull types perform and “feel” very differently. One characteristic that is always mentioned on these forums, though usually erroneously, is the sailing speed. Speed around the buoys on empty boats is one thing. Speed in the ocean on a loaded cruising boat is very different. On such cruising boats, the speed difference between the full keel or the fin keel, does not exist, OR, the characteristic is often reversed. I have owned only 4 boats. My previous one a fin keel. My current one is a Westsail 32. I have delivered many W-32’s and bought this one soon after a 4000nm nonstop delivery on it. I recorded my first 1000 mile week on that delivery. I have since had 8 more 1000nm weeks.
Wingssail has said that full keels “are slower on most, if not all, points of sail” and says “they are motoring all the time”. Those are misstatement in my experience, with the caveat that the full keeled boat be prepared and sailed equally to the fin keeler. Wingssail has asked Delfin “How often have you done that?” in reference to a claim that Delfin and his Cape George 36 have sailed past more modern and lighter boats. He has asked twice. Certainly Delfin”s claim is correct. I have NO doubt about that. I can also make the same claim 100 times over. One problem is that the boats that were passed will seldom, if ever, admit it. Especially regarding a W-32. Just for “show and tell”, I have sailed to Hawaii from California on a W-32 in 14 d 7hrs, and 14 d 20 hrs. I have returned in 18 d 20 hrs, and 18 d 22 hrs. On different boats, single-handed. Please compared those times with your times, or your friends time.
Bleemus has commented about Full keelers, “yes, if you like going slow and ignoring the last 50 years of yacht design”. He has said this twice here. Much has changed in boating in the past 50 years but my experience with the smaller, long distance, cruising sailboats is that sailing speed has changed very little, if at all, on these boats. As a challenge to him, I suggest he take his Wauquiez 38 and challenge an Alajuela 38 to a duel, just to gain a little knowledge.
I admit that I too am usually witnessing the heavy, full keel boat sailing slower than an equal sized modern boat. Usually because the owner of that boat has such vastly different priorities. Will you EVER see a Melges 32 loaded down with 200 books or 300’ of chain or etc, etc, etc? Or use a fixed 3 bladed prop and use bronze mushroom style thru-hulls? Etc, etc. Of course not. But when boats are prepared and sailed equally, they will sail accordingly.
Delfin has said “If one concludes that a hull design that takes 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, place in a long distance race isn’t that great for sailing long distance, it speaks to confirmation bias, not yacht design, and that was really my point” Very well said Delfin. It’s unfortunate that something else is going on here. Thankyou

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Very nice!

Btw, what are you playing with down there in the cockpit while Judy is doing all the work?

That photo was taken by Bill Baum just after the start of a Jack and Jill (double handed) race. We've come off the line and have just sheeted in the sails. Now I have to set up all the fine trim. Just under the traveler is the hydraulic panel and we keep the hydraulic backstay down during the starting sequence so we are free to tack and gybe without much attention to the running backstays. As soon as we're off we set the runner (done) and now pump up the backstay to shape the mainsail. That is what I'm doing.

In the Jack and Jill races Judy steers, handles halyard tails, pole lift, and helps with the running backstays while I do everything else.

I will tell you that when she insists on short tacking the beach with a heavy #1 genoa up I'm doing all the hard work. It is very aerobic.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Panope

I am now employed at the Cape George factory, doing a MAJOR refit on a 36. Haven't sailed aboard her yet, but what a ship!

I'm happy to answer questions about how these great boats are built.

Steve

Which one Steve?

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by oregonian

….... It’s no secret that the different hull types perform and “feel” very differently. One characteristic that is always mentioned on these forums, though usually erroneously, is the sailing speed. Speed around the buoys on empty boats is one thing. Speed in the ocean on a loaded cruising boat is very different. On such cruising boats, the speed difference between the full keel or the fin keel, does not exist, OR, the characteristic is often reversed.....

I'd add that having hit what I assume was a whale on a return from Hawaii at 2 a.m. in pitch dark and 35 knots of apparent wind at around 7 knots, with the boat lifting a foot or so out of the water I can tell you that I was grateful not to have an exposed spade rudder as is typical of modern designs. In a fin keel modern design with an exposed spade it could have ruined my day, but now just makes an interesting anecdote. Hope the whale was ok.

New construction is pretty much a cost per pound of vessel issue. Want to save money? Make it lighter. As a result there are lots more light weight boats out there than stout (and fast) full keel boats that can stand up to clouds of sail, so naturally there are lots of people who validate their ownership with claims of superiority. And modern boats are superior in many ways, especially if you are cruising around locally or interested in racing. Loads of fun. But crossing oceans? Maybe not so superior if still perfectly fine, so I guess it is a matter of what you're looking for in a boat.

[a64pilot]

I still think it interesting that no matter what the conversation is about when “better” boat is mentioned some always take faster to mean better.
Isn’t a sailboat the slowest of all human conveyances? If so why are so many so hung up on this idea of speed, willing to sacrifice all kinds of comfort etc so that they are a whole kt faster?
Me, I’ll take a smooth ride and a hot shower and eat a well cooked meal on passage, enjoying my electric head, make some water and listen to some good music and gasp arrive a whole day later than someone who was soaking wet and cold and half beaten to death and ate peanut butter sandwiches.

There is a whole lot more to cruising than who is fastest, I rate comfort way up there personally, your choices may differ.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I still think it interesting that no matter what the conversation is about when “better” boat is mentioned some always take faster to mean better.
Isn’t a sailboat the slowest of all human conveyances? If so why are so many so hung up on this idea of speed, willing to sacrifice all kinds of comfort etc so that they are a whole kt faster?
Me, I’ll take a smooth ride and a hot shower and eat a well cooked meal on passage, enjoying my electric head, make some water and listen to some good music and gasp arrive a whole day later than someone who was soaking wet and cold and half beaten to death and ate peanut butter sandwiches.

There is a whole lot more to cruising than who is fastest, I rate comfort way up there personally, your choices may differ.

Couldn’t agree more!! Been racing all my life and when was finally looking to add a cruising boat the comfort was my #1 priority. So first it was a center cockpit cutter layout and opted in for in mast main furling, self tacking furled staysail and many more items that make my life so much better while cruising.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I still think it interesting that no matter what the conversation is about when “better” boat is mentioned some always take faster to mean better.
Isn’t a sailboat the slowest of all human conveyances? If so why are so many so hung up on this idea of speed, willing to sacrifice all kinds of comfort etc so that they are a whole kt faster?
Me, I’ll take a smooth ride and a hot shower and eat a well cooked meal on passage, enjoying my electric head, make some water and listen to some good music and gasp arrive a whole day later than someone who was soaking wet and cold and half beaten to death and ate peanut butter sandwiches.

There is a whole lot more to cruising than who is fastest, I rate comfort way up there personally, your choices may differ.

Could not agree more. I so much enjoy the "getting there" that cutting a few hours off at the expense of drama has never seen like a worthwhile tradeoff to me. I had a 7 knot sailboat and now I have an 8 knot trawler. Would I trade my efficient slow boat with a full keel and a kindly motion that I can cross oceans in wearing carpet slippers for a downwind sled or fuel guzzler in order to get there a day sooner? Nope.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Which one Steve?

PM sent.