Full Keel Sailboats

[Don C L]

Are we really considering a J-boat or "Spray" to be "full keel" boats? Spray relied on beam for stability more than ballast it seems to me, and the J-boat has a lot of waterline available.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

I live on a Wauquiez 38 and will happily wave to thomm as I sail past him.

You seem all caught up in the speed thing. (and for 38' your boat's PHRF is only 129. Not that fast for it's length)

Maybe you should have raced a bit before buying a cruising boat.

Many times it's about the weather you are in that will determine your speed in a distance race. So once the boats are separated weather/wind etc is many times the dividing factor not a boats possible speed.

I did the speed/race thing sailing single handed most of the time. You do miss a lot when racing.

I bought my old Bristol a couple years after I moved back up here because I had read tons about full keel boats, had read Robin Lee Grahams books, and had hung out at our apartment's dock in Florida with a bunch of old full keel boat sailors in the 1990's for years

Then I stumbled upon this Bristol 27 in 2011 in a boatyard way off the beaten path. I had been left near here on the PO's return from his final 2 year cruise to Florida and the Bahamas. There wasn't even a for sale sign on it

It was the perfect boat to buy for the transition from beach cat sailor/racer and small boat owner to a monohull that was kept in a slip at a marina

Replacing the diesel a couple times was also a very good learning experience as was learning to dock it. The boat doesn't seem to mind taking chunks out of pilings or docks while getting into it's slip. It's very forgiving

Then there was anchoring over night in very bad spots. I was saved several times anchored 50-70 yards off the beach at Kiptopeke under heavy onshore winds due to the PO's anchors and heavy chain. His old 20 lb CQR (and 40' of heavy chain and 250' rode) works perfectly in the bay's mud bottom. The boat also came with a backup Bruce anchor with similar chain and rode.

I do wish the boat would point better though, but since it doesn't, you have to try for the best ways to use tide and wind to make your return trips.

Sometimes I motor sail it using the boats main engine a 4 stroke 5 hp extra long 25" shaft outboard. I could never get used to those old smelly, leaky diesel engines that were in the boat and refused to buy a newer one since I had paid so little for the boat that I didn't think I'd own long before buying a larger one

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think they were competitive sailors and wanted to beat the others in the race, and they used the boats which were permitted and had to adhere to the rules. It had nothing to do with some romantic notion of trying to relive Knox-Johnson's circumnavigation.

Now the boats you showed, Suhaili is an ancient design which served its purpose once upon a time. The Rustler is abhorrent, terrible boat in my opinion, but the Bristol is sweet.

Some of the sailors in the 2018 GGR didn't have a lot of experience it appears (like in the 1968 GGR) and may have had a romantic idea of sailing round the world non-stop but I'm sure would also want to win the race

Robin Knox Johnson's boat Suhaili was mostly hand made with old traditional tools in India. It's made of Indian teak with 6" X 6" stringers. It's quite heavily built and still sailing today. Btw, Knox Johnson may have been caught by Frenchman Bernard Moitessier but he decided to forego the finish and keep on going round another 1/2 distance to save his soul

Maybe some chose the Rustler 36 due to it's lower SA/Disp Number of only 11.43 which might make it a good boat for the Southern Ocean and it's winds. Plus it has a nice Bal/Disp # of 45+. LWL almost 27'

It appeared the lead boat that won the GGR race in 2018 was mostly due to it's placement on the race course by Jean Luc Van Den Heede who is French. One of the reasons Knox Johnson raced back in the day was to prevent a Frenchman from another big race win

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/rustler-36

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Are we really considering a J-boat or "Spray" to be "full keel" boats? Spray relied on beam for stability more than ballast it seems to me, and the J-boat has a lot of waterline available.

I, myself, consider the J-boats to be fin keel, except for the rudder.

However, if you removed the long overhangs on either end it would have a profile much like full keel boat.

Spray is a barge. Suhali is a direct descendant from the pilot cutter types and has some merit, if for its heavy teak construction of nothing else.

The Rustler 36 has nothing going for it in my opinion.

Look at Shamrock V without the overhangs.

[thomm225]

Pretty good video on Robin Knox Johnson's GGR 1968: (looks like he's replaced the original pine masts on Suhaili)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVRbRBReYiY

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

I live on a Wauquiez 38 and will happily wave to thomm as I sail past him.

The Rustler was the "best" boat as defined by the rules of the GGR. It does not make it an awesome boat. It is an outdated pig of a design that was forced upon competitors by race organizers who wanted to relive what they believed were the glory days.

I have taken my son sailing on a 36 foot full keel boat doing 4 knots and a 52 foot trimaran where we easily did 25 knots. Which do you think he preferred? If you want sailing to progress and evolve people need to respect the past but don't discount advancements in design. Anything else is just an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. Hang the pictures of schooners on your walls but go out and embrace the amazing advances we have made.

Bleemus, respectfully, I just don't get your drift. Nobody is discounting the progress made in design. Of course I'm not. I have long been a proponent on this forum of modern boats and have had many arguments with other CF members on that subject. Nor have the most of the other full keel proponents, (if you toss out characters who maintain that full keel boats are equally as fast, "track" better, and have a more comfortable ride, Geez!). But having a warm feeling for a traditional, well designed, full keel boat is not sticking one's head in the sand like an ostrich. Many of the world's best designers in years past designed full keel boats with good performance.

Like I said, once a good boat, always a good boat.

And don't be too smug about your ability to pass a smaller boat with your 1978 design. I will pass you with my 1979 43' liveaboard and my neighbor will pass me with his 2009 44' Hanse, and all of the boats I pictured above will pass all of us. Anyone can buy a bigger, newer, more expensive boat and lord it over the guy one step down the ladder.

But there is more to boat choice than size and speed. A person's intended use and other priorities in life come into play. If I have to sell my current boat I would love to have a nice, small, traditional boat which I can rig and take out myself anytime I want and just enjoy the peace of sailing her.

I would encourage you to teach you son that there is much more to appreciate about the sea and boats than just going fast. If you make speed the king in his mind then you'll be pretty worried as he gets close to driving age.

Now, Bleemus, I have a question for you? Why have you not moved with the times and embraced the design improvements made in the last 40 years and moved aboard a foiling trimaran.

[Delfin]

We made the passage to Hawaii from Eureka in 18 days, and the return to Victoria in 21 days in our 12 ton, 36' overall length, 31' lwl, 5' draft Cape George cutter. The Cape George was drawn off the lines of a boat that dominated the Swiftsure race in the late 30's. She was tender, but once in a groove was unstoppable. I always enjoyed sailing past lighter weight more modern designs in light airs. A bit of wave would take speed off them, but not Anthem. Because of her weight and bowsprit, she carried sail area that would fit a 42' vessel nicely. Unbelievable sea kindly in the ocean. When I read about how full keel boats are slow and can't compete with modern designs, I really have to think that that perhaps those folks are speaking from a somewhat limited experience with boat design. It is too expensive to build boats like a Cape George today and you can get a more modern design that is lighter weight, pounds more, is less sea worthy but faster downwind for 1/3 the cost, so no wonder these designs dominate the market, and the thinking of many sailors.

Cape George Cutters § History § Cecil Lange / William Atkin / traditional full keel sailboat

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Delfin

We made the passage to Hawaii from Eureka in 18 days, and the return to Victoria in 21 days in our 12 ton, 36' overall length, 31' lwl, 5' draft Cape George cutter. The Cape George was drawn off the lines of a boat that dominated the Swiftsure race in the late 30's. She was tender, but once in a groove was unstoppable. I always enjoyed sailing past lighter weight more modern designs in light airs. A bit of wave would take speed off them, but not Anthem. Because of her weight and bowsprit, she carried sail area that would fit a 42' vessel nicely. Unbelievable sea kindly in the ocean. When I read about how full keel boats are slow and can't compete with modern designs, I really have to think that that perhaps those folks are speaking from a somewhat limited experience with boat design. It is too expensive to build boats like a Cape George today and you can get a more modern design that is lighter weight, pounds more, is less sea worthy but faster downwind for 1/3 the cost, so no wonder these designs dominate the market, and the thinking of many sailors.

Cape George Cutters § History § Cecil Lange / William Atkin / traditional full keel sailboat

Nice looking boats!

And it's great to see a tiller on a 36' boat...….

[Lemsteraak]

Looking at the hull shape of the Rustler 36 reminds me of a Folkboat. Even the rudder looks the same.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Delfin

...I always enjoyed sailing past lighter weight more modern designs in light airs...

You've done this often?

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You've done this often?

Over 20 years and 25,000 miles, yes.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Nice looking boats!

And it's great to see a tiller on a 36' boat...….

We usually just removed the tiller on ocean passages. I built a 4" trim tab that I attached to the trailing edge of the rudder, which was steered with the upper section of an Autohelm windvane that turned the trim tab with bicycle cables. This setup steered her straight in most any wind, and the whole kit only weighed about 20#.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Pretty good video on Robin Knox Johnson's GGR 1968: (looks like he's replaced the original pine masts on Suhaili)

Off topic but I loved watching this video, thanks for sharing.
I don't think I can ever swim untethered beside a moving boat

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Over 20 years and 25,000 miles, yes.

I mean sail past newer, lighter boats? Because I've never actually seen that happen much except I pretty often have races where I can pass a lighter, newer, competitor (rival) for a leg or two, but they are always ahead at the finish. They are 30 sec/mile faster.

I guess your rating would be about 160 which means you would be expected to be about minute a mile slower than a typical newer, lighter, boat in all around conditions. So if you are actually faster, that is pretty good.

How often have you don that?

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I mean sail past newer, lighter boats? Because I've never actually seen that happen much except I pretty often have races where I can pass a lighter, newer, competitor (rival) for a leg or two, but they are always ahead at the finish. They are 30 sec/mile faster.

I guess your rating would be about 160 which means you would be expected to be about minute a mile slower than a typical newer, lighter, boat in all around conditions. So if you are actually faster, that is pretty good.

How often have you don that?

We never raced Anthem. We cruised in her. That said, anytime two sailboats are headed in the same direction there is a race on, and I never felt at a disadvantage to lighter, more modern designs, mostly because I didn't find it all that difficult to close the gap, or widen it once ahead. Perhaps it is because my boat on a 31.5' waterline carried about 60 ft2 less than your 44 foot boat. Maybe it's because whenever I was as fast or faster than a lighter boat of the same size it was because the other boat's captain wasn't a good sailor. Who knows, and who cares. No doubt I'd lose in the Saturday yacht club matches, but over some distance, not quite as likely. If one concludes that a hull design that takes first, second and third place in a long distance race isn't that great for sailing long distances it speaks to confirmation bias, not yacht design, and that was really my point.