Full Keel Sailboats

[mabowers]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Here’s my baby. As I said, she’s a FULL keel. All I can say is, if you see me coming into a marina — get out of the way!

I'd try, but in my Southern Cross 39, it might be tough. I could reverse and spin counter-clockwise I suppose (whether I really want to or not.. talk about prop-walk)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Crabpot105

Oh no, not rocks.

I'd call that an extremely hard grounding, and I wouldn't even get close to a bottom like that if I could in anyway avoid it

Neither would I, However we once motored into a solid reef at 7.25 knots which we knew was there but misjudged it's position. We were in shock. But the boat backed off. I found no water in the sump, no leakage, no damage visible. I dove on the boat and there was a fist sized hole in the front of the lead keel, which we repaired at the next haulout (with new lead). There was no damage to the hull anywhere.

But Rocks do kill hulls if not keels. These two photos show what can happen. On the left is a fin keel light weight boat. The rocks you see is the ground on which the boat landed. It was holed in 30minutes or less. However, a few miles away from this a heavyweight, full keel, 34 ft cruising boat had the exact same type of damage from a rocky grounding in surf. The keels could not have been more different, but both boats suffered the same damage. If you go aground in the surf, with rocks, you will lose you boat regardless of the keel.

[Mike OReilly]

Thanks folks. We do love our boat. She is a challenge in some circumstances. But she excels in others. Depends on the day how much I love, or hate, her keel.

Hard groundings are never good for any boat. One benefit of a full keel in these cases is the keel slope dissipates the force of the hit as she rides up the shallow. Instead of coming to a shuddering halt, we slide up on top of the obstruction. We also don’t suffer from the cantliever damage that a fin keeled hull can suffer when hitting hard.

While this can mean a lesser hit, it can also pose a problem b/c now we’ve ridden high up the obstruction. With my boat, even moving at a slow speed means we have lots of momentum, so we can (and have) been high and dry sitting on top of something we should have avoided.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Here’s my baby. As I said, she’s a FULL keel. All I can say is, if you see me coming into a marina — get out of the way!

I have a friend with a Rafiki... he was still getting used to it, had some trouble with the throttle linkage supposedly and came into to dock at quite a clip. The dock (wood and concrete) received "substantial damage".... there was a small scratch on his bow...

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

In my perfect boat world I would prefer a modified fin with skeg-hung rudder. But I have yet to find the perfect boat.

I hate to be a broken record, but the amel 53 has that. Skeg rudder, modified fin with flattened bulb on base for hard standing too, with a swept back forward end so you don't snag anything and sail drive out of the back to protect the prop as well...

[Dockhead]

I hate to break it to you, but that's not by any stretch of the imagination a full keel. That's a shortened fin keel with centerboard or swing or whatever extension you have.

A full keel is one where the bottom of the keel is at least 50% as long as the boat length and little or no separation of the trailing edge of the keel from the rudder.

If you take the profile of that keel and extend the leading and trailing edges down to a normal draft for that length boat, you'll see its an absolutely normal fin keel. Just cut off for reduced draft with a moveable extension to make up for what was cut off.

Should perform quite well, vastly much better than a full keel. Look at the big separation between keel and rudder; that will give the rudder power and make the boat maneuverable.

Only drawback is lack of ballast low down, but a higher ballast ratio will mostly deal with that.

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Mike, you’d love Roxy. Modified full with skeg rudder, swing center board.

We still get pounded in short tall seas. Leaving Bonaire we had 80 miles of 14 foot with 6 seconds. Not fun.

[cal40john]

In 63 when the Cal 40 came into production as an open ocean racer it was said that this dangerous fin keel spade rudder boat was going to kill people. The keel was going to fall off, the spade rudder break off.

My younger friends laugh when they see this picture, that's almost a full keel they say.

Encapsulated keel so don't have to worry about corroded keelbolts, my personal worry looking at OPBs with rusty bolts sitting in a pool of bilge water. 3 inch diameter rudder post going through a solid fiberglass tube to a tiller is robust and simple.

Somewhat lacking in storage space and flat forebody tends to pound are some downsides.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Crabpot105

Thanks, but you have to give it to the old full keel boats which can bounce their encapsulated keels off the bottom for a while if they happen to run aground without causing any damage.

Not so with a bolt on keel I'm thinking which means should I buy one I'd have to be more on the ball with navigation in low water and not just relay on how the water and waves look to determine depth which is my normal method now

Think you might be pushed to name many manufacturers which still produce true long keeled yachts, certainly in any numbers or than perhaps quaint little Bristol and Falmouth cutter types. The big manufacturers are all building fins to meet the demand.

There is a you tube video of a 26ft dehler being repeatedly driven into a concrete sea wall at 6 knots. Seems to bounce off quite well and survives enough for them to go out and have another half a dozen goes.

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I hate to be a broken record, but the amel 53 has that. Skeg rudder, modified fin with flattened bulb on base for hard standing too, with a swept back forward end so you don't snag anything and sail drive out of the back to protect the prop as well...

That's a pretty standard keel configuration for ocean cruising boats built in the last 20 years. Oyster, Moody, Discovery, Najad, HR are all more or less the same, maybe with a little more bulblike and less winglike bottom to the keel.


It's a good compromise because you get pretty decent performance, not as good as a high aspect keel, but decent, and at the same time this can be made very strong.


One thing about rudders -- this is thread drift, but I personally dislike skeg hung rudders. They are not really stronger and arguably are more vulnerable to damage, compared to a really good spade rudder. Read what Steve Dashew writes about this.


Skeg hung rudders are much worse hydrodynamically which impairs the performance of the vessel because lift from the rudder is a key part of hydrodynamic lift you need for sailing upwind. But also without balance they make the autopilot work much harder and have much worse feel. On top of that, they are more vulnerable to being slammed over and broken when the boat goes in reverse, for example if taken aback in a storm.


My own boat has a compromise -- a partial skeg -- which allows it to be partially balanced, but has all the other disadvantages of skeg hung rudders. I would prefer a massively built spade rudder like Steve Dashew advocates and what all his boats have.


Matter of taste and priorities of course, so YMMV.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I have a friend with a Rafiki... he was still getting used to it, had some trouble with the throttle linkage supposedly and came into to dock at quite a clip. The dock (wood and concrete) received "substantial damage".... there was a small scratch on his bow...

Ouch… Been there, done that .

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I hate to be a broken record, but the amel 53 has that. Skeg rudder, modified fin with flattened bulb on base for hard standing too, with a swept back forward end so you don't snag anything and sail drive out of the back to protect the prop as well...

Yup, there’s the one . Strikes me as the perfect compromise keel/rudder design. But then what do I know … you’ve seen the keel I picked, right?

[Paul L]

Full keels are just slow. They cause lots of drag from their excessive surface area requiring more sail power to drive them. More sail power is harder on the mom and pop crew.
Tbe designer Bob Perry likes to joke about the number of skegs on older boats he's seen that are held on by the rudder.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

A lot depends on how you approach sailing and why you sail.

A full keel boat will generally be heavier, and maybe safer in groundings. Some people swear that they track better than fin keel boats and have easier motion in seas. It will also be slower on most, if not all, points of sail, and if you love the feel of an exciting sailboat, you won't get it quite the same way with a full keelboat. But if tradition, security of a heavy boat, and homelike interior is your thing, and you don't mind being a little off the pace, the full keel boat might really suit you.

On the other hand a fin keel boat will generally be lighter and possibly subject to more damage in groundings although I'd debate that one. As for tracking, the power of a balanced and separate rudder far back from the keel makes the boat extremely responsive to rudder input. Being pushed off your line by a wave is no problem if the rudder puts you right back on it instantly. But the real reason for the fin keel boat is performance and feel. A designer would rarely put a small sail plan on a fin keel boat, so they are usually powered up. They may really come alive in 10 knots of wind and you can feel that. You reef them down early and then they fly with small sails. (You can tell it excites me just talking about it). So if you love sailing more than a feeling of security that comes from heaviness, a fin keel (and a spade rudder) would be for you.

Ocean passages, any boat can do it. You might wind up motoring more with your full keel boat, or, with a fin keel you may find you can sail any direction in any breeze, so you do.

This is our boat, we've sailed it across all the oceans.

That's a good explanation, thanks! Even though I've heard it many times before I guess it just takes time for it to totally sink in.

I've been sailing my full keel boat now for quiet a few years and both days this weekend for short light air day sails. Of course, light air is light air but even when the wind is up the boat doesn't perform well but it will definitely get the job done.

It's the most fun in winds over 20 knots or so running downwind which appears to be what many use these type boats for when crossing oceans in the trade winds

I raced small, fast boats for years and thought I was ready for a change but maybe it's too drastic. I single hand this boat and the most exciting time is getting out of the slip and getting the sails up etc and as I said when the winds are 20 knots plus

Going to the C&C 36 with it's near 6' draft and 129 PHRF rating as compared to my boat's 245 or so would surely be a nice change

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Full keels are just slow. They cause lots of drag from their excessive surface area requiring more sail power to drive them. More sail power is harder on the mom and pop crew.
Tbe designer Bob Perry likes to joke about the number of skegs on older boats he's seen that are held on by the rudder.

They are slow at least the smaller ones like mine are.

My boat's top speed since I've owned it was like 7.5 knots in 30 knot winds sailing with the tide. Hull speed is 5.97 knots or so

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by cal40john

In 63 when the Cal 40 came into production as an open ocean racer it was said that this dangerous fin keel spade rudder boat was going to kill people. The keel was going to fall off, the spade rudder break off.

My younger friends laugh when they see this picture, that's almost a full keel they say.

Encapsulated keel so don't have to worry about corroded keelbolts, my personal worry looking at OPBs with rusty bolts sitting in a pool of bilge water. 3 inch diameter rudder post going through a solid fiberglass tube to a tiller is robust and simple.

Somewhat lacking in storage space and flat forebody tends to pound are some downsides.

Those Cal 40's are pretty awesome boats and several were racing in last years Newport to Bermuda race

[Cruiser2B]

Originally Posted by Crabpot105

They are slow at least the smaller ones like mine are.

My boat's top speed since I've owned it was like 7.5 knots in 30 knot winds sailing with the tide. Hull speed is 5.97 knots or so

Crabpot,
What boat do you own/sail?

While I agree full keels can and most often are slower...there have been many documented instances where, in the right hands, a full keel boat can be fast and competitive even!