Shoal Keel or Full Swing Keel ?

[gordo1287]

Hey everybody, Im new to this forum, been sailing for a while, but have recently decided to get a trailer sailer to use at local lakes and in the gulf. I am looking at getting something around 22 or 23 ft long. My question is this, what are the advantages and disadvantages to getting a boat with a shoal keel that has a swing keel, or a boat with a complete swing keel. I know that a boat with a shoal keel will be a little more difficult to get on and off of the trailer, but does it have some sort of an advantage over a boat where the keel retracts all the way up into the hull so it is flat on the bottom? I ask because I know it obviously easier to beach a full swing keel just because it is flat on bottom, whereas a shoal keel boat has to be anchored, it cannot be beached. What are yalls thoughts on what should work best?? Thanks in advance for the advice, and I look forward to utilizing the knowledge available on here!

[capn_billl]

When you get one give me a call. I'm looking for the same thing. If you don't mind I'd like to crew on yours to see how well it works.

[skipmac]

There are some general rules of thumb for the two options but specific boats may differ from the generality.

That being said.

1. Shoal keel with additional drop keel or centerboard. For a small boat leaves more room inside since you don't have to retract the keel up into a trunk inside the cabin. Often easier to manage raising/lowering the keel or centerboard.

2. Drop or swing keel. Usually gives shallower draft and easier to beach the boat with a flat bottom. Depending on the weight, shape, size of the keel the boat might sail better, have lower center of gravity.

[roverhi]

Depending on the depth of the keel, a keel/centerboard boat can be run onto a beach. Just be careful you do it on a rising tide so you can get it off.

I don't like boats with swing keels, think they are dangerous. If you have a serious knockdown, the keel can swing up drastically changing the balance moment arm turning a serious problem into a disaster. In a keel centerboard boat, the centerboards are usually relatively light and not a ballast factor so if their centerboard swings up, it would have little affect stability. Also, every boat I've seen with a swing keel, have been extremely lightly built. Wouldn't trust the hulls to keep the water out if pushed hard.

[gordo1287]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

When you get one give me a call. I'm looking for the same thing. If you don't mind I'd like to crew on yours to see how well it works.

Yea I will let you know when I do, right now im leaning toward a Gulf Coast 23 that this guy I know is selling, its a pretty big boat, but it has a swing keel so it retracts all the way up into the boat, but its not bad because of how the cabin is layed out it really does not get in the way..

I really like the idea of being able beach it easily and I know that it can get shallow in some of the ICW's.

What do yall suggest?

[gordo1287]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Depending on the depth of the keel, a keel/centerboard boat can be run onto a beach. Just be careful you do it on a rising tide so you can get it off.

I don't like boats with swing keels, think they are dangerous. If you have a serious knockdown, the keel can swing up drastically changing the balance moment arm turning a serious problem into a disaster. In a keel centerboard boat, the centerboards are usually relatively light and not a ballast factor so if their centerboard swings up, it would have little affect stability. Also, every boat I've seen with a swing keel, have been extremely lightly built. Wouldn't trust the hulls to keep the water out if pushed hard.

So youre saying that with a full swing keel if the boat were to fall on its side, the keel could swing back up into the boat and make it nearly impossible to right?

What do you mean that swing keel boats are built extremely light? are you talking weight wise?

[E.L.Green]

my boat is a 23 foot and water ballast with a centerboad. i beach it all the time. as stability is concerned, so far i have never encountered any issues that have made me seriously nervous. it does roll around a little bit more in a chop when at anchor but thats just a trade off. we bought this boat because we had a full swing keel in the past that was a nightmare. 600 lb lead keel that the cable would always foul, override itself on the winch etc. it is easy to launch and retrieve although we leave it in the water all season. 1100 lbs dry 2500 wet or something to that effect. plenty of room in the interior and only needs 2 feet of water to use the outboat.

[Tallswede]

I now have a Hunter 23.5 that is a swing keel (center board) water ballasted boat. The center board does not fully retract into the hull. It will float in 18" of water so is beachable especially in the muddy environs of Galveston Bay. My first sailboat was a Gulf Coast 23. It sailed just fine and was a great boat for Galveston Bay and surrounding bayous etc. It had a cast iron swing keel with a cable winch to raise and lower the keel (heavy). As far as the keel swinging up in rough water, you would have to go over past 90 degrees to swing that keel up and even then your ballast is low enough to bring you back up. The more likely scenario is the cable breaking and the keel swinging down suddenly with no way to get it back up. You must keep the cable and it's attachment in very good shape on these cast iron keel boats. Depending on how the boat has been maintained, you may have to drop the keel to replace the keel bolt and fair and seal the keel. I did mine and it's a straight forward procedure but is no light weight task. Water ballasted boats are a bit more tender initially but much lighter on the trailer and centerboards are easier to pull and work on but I really liked the way my GC-23 sailed and would not steer someone away from a nice one.

Kevin

[gordo1287]

Originally Posted by Tallswede

I now have a Hunter 23.5 that is a swing keel (center board) water ballasted boat. The center board does not fully retract into the hull. It will float in 18" of water so is beachable especially in the muddy environs of Galveston Bay. My first sailboat was a Gulf Coast 23. It sailed just fine and was a great boat for Galveston Bay and surrounding bayous etc. It had a cast iron swing keel with a cable winch to raise and lower the keel (heavy). As far as the keel swinging up in rough water, you would have to go over past 90 degrees to swing that keel up and even then your ballast is low enough to bring you back up. The more likely scenario is the cable breaking and the keel swinging down suddenly with no way to get it back up. You must keep the cable and it's attachment in very good shape on these cast iron keel boats. Depending on how the boat has been maintained, you may have to drop the keel to replace the keel bolt and fair and seal the keel. I did mine and it's a straight forward procedure but is no light weight task. Water ballasted boats are a bit more tender initially but much lighter on the trailer and centerboards are easier to pull and work on but I really liked the way my GC-23 sailed and would not steer someone away from a nice one.

Kevin

Thats great to hear about the GC23, did you ever take it out offshore? Alsom how did you like the layout of the cabin? Did you ever sleep in it for an extended period, or did you just use it for day sailing?

[capn_billl]

Wouldn't the swing keel have a retaining bolt to keep it in place once deployed. Or does it rely on weight only?

I personally wouldn't want a water ballast, as stated they are more tender, and watertanks under water don't provide the stability that a hunk of lead or steel does.

The convenience of a centerboard is good, but my experience of a small daggerboard sailboat is they CAN be capsized. A good solid weighted keel would be best if possible in a trailerable boat.

[Tallswede]

The interior of my GC-23 was okay for daysailing and overnighting but I'm a tall guy and the only comfortable berth for me was on the Starboard side with my feet under the bridge deck. I was planning on making some interior improvements but decided to sell the boat and buy a 27' ChrisCraft Constellation to fix up instead. (Dumb move but learned a lot about working on boats). No, there was no pin or bolt to keep the swing keel from moving. The 600-800 lbs of cast iron did not move around especially while sailing as it was pressed against the sides of the centerboard trunk, wedging it sorta. I never did take it "off-shore" and probably would have only done so if I was very sure of good weather. These boats are not heavy duty enough in the rigging department to make them "blue-water" though with good weather you can do some good little cruises on them. As far as water ballast goes, there are lots of pros and cons for each and there are other threads that go into them very deeply. I wouldn't hesitate to sail my little Hunter to the Bahamas or off shore in the Gulf of Mexico for short passages in good weather only. That is what these little boats are all about, trailering to a spot near where you want to be and poking around exploring places you can't get to in bigger deeper draft boats.

Kevin

[E.L.Green]

capsizing on my santana isnt an issue. when it is over powered it broaches and weather vanes itself into the wind. in such conditions the rudder does not have enough authority to bury the rails or go over. its a pretty forgiving boat.

[nautical62]

I've owned 3 swing keel boats and 3 fixed keel boats.

Generally, I prefer the KISS principle. Since swing keels are more complex, more prone to damage, more prone to failure and more prone to serious leaking, I feel I need a strong incentive to purchase one over a simpler fixed keel. The ease of trailering and launching from a trailer would certainly be one of those incentives. Cost might be another.

Recent post which indicates the potential problems:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post696624

[boydk]

Possibly a bunny trail... but I've often wondered why more boats weren't done with a large centerboard like the Hobie 33. With a ballast weight at the bottom that retracts up into the hull for trailering. You get some of the weight leverage of a keel, and some of the keels shape, but more trailerable. Any other 20+ ft boats use weighted centerboards?

[Paul J. Nolan]

Do you plan to launch your boat off a ramp or launch her off a crane, perhaps at a local yacht club? I have been thinking out getting a trailerable boat. I have two sisters, one once owned a San Juan 21, the other, a Catalina 22. The Catalina 22 owner rued the lack of performance under sail and quickly sold the boat. The other sister seemed happy with the boat, but we never discussed performance.

Speaking for myself, I am distrustful of substantially ballasted swinging appendages. Most (not all) boats that have them seem lightly built. Of course, most of the boats I've owned have had centerboards, but on a Lightning I was able to remove and replace the centerboard myself. That's probably not the case with a ballasted swing keel. And if they cannot be absolutely secured in place they are a loose cannon if hove down on beam ends (and that can happen).

Again, speaking for myself, I am inclined toward a fixed keel trailerable boat...a Cal 20, J 24, even a J 22 and look for a yacht club where I can launch with a crane. Simpler gear, better boat, better performance.

Paul