Full Keel Sailboats

[Bleemus]

"Maybe you should have raced a bit before buying a cruising boat."

Marblehead Halifax Race Record - Santa Cruz 70- Bowman
Annapolis Newport Race Record - Santa Cruz 70- Sail Trimmer
Stamford Vineyard Race Record -Santa Cruz 70- Bowman
Twostar Doublehanded Transatlantic Race - 40 foot trimaran -Winner Class IV

Your right. I still have a little room in my trophy case.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

"Maybe you should have raced a bit before buying a cruising boat."

Marblehead Halifax Race Record - Santa Cruz 70- Bowman
Annapolis Newport Race Record - Santa Cruz 70- Sail Trimmer
Stamford Vineyard Race Record -Santa Cruz 70- Bowman
Twostar Doublehanded Transatlantic Race - 40 foot trimaran -Winner Class IV

Your right. I still have a little room in my trophy case.

Nice.

Hopefully you learned a little as a crewman on a slow racing boat.

Now try 450 races or so as a Skipper and then maybe you will understand what I am talking about.

And sometimes as a singlehanded skipper on a boat with a spinnaker and making all the tacking calls as well as on the boat details like rake and prebend amount, batten selection, etc. Then there's starting line favored position and course favored

Btw, I really dislike PHRF racing and it's inexact science so I always strive to lead/win boat for boat which is where I started racing one design on Hobie 16's.

It's actually how I learned to sail. I started racing immediately after I could make the boat move forward

https://owners.aquarius-sail.com/php...topic.php?t=86

[Don C L]

Well no need to shed blood over trophy cases but would you not both agree that what one might put up with while racing just won’t be tolerated in a cruising boat that will need a modicum of comfort in the mix? So just where is that perfect blend of comfort and speed? I think we’re all gonna end up at, “I like my boat the best!”Which of course is the right answer.

[Pauls]

A significant part of the difference between long and fin keels is only apparent in a seaway. I'd suggest reading Marchaj "Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor". He has a chapter describing keel stall, water flow turbulence and flow attachment which I have seen nowhere else. In essence it boils down to a longer keel being able to average the varied flow conditions it sees as the boat rolls and sails thru the rotary flow pattern of waves, which improves directional stability.

Full keels and fin keels both have their advantages. They are different, and discussing which is "better" comes down to "better for what?"

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Pauls

A significant part of the difference between long and fin keels is only apparent in a seaway. I'd suggest reading Marchaj "Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor". He has a chapter describing keel stall, water flow turbulence and flow attachment which I have seen nowhere else. In essence it boils down to a longer keel being able to average the varied flow conditions it sees as the boat rolls and sails thru the rotary flow pattern of waves, which improves directional stability.

Full keels and fin keels both have their advantages. They are different, and discussing which is "better" comes down to "better for what?"

Yup....

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I still think it interesting that no matter what the conversation is about when “better” boat is mentioned some always take faster to mean better.
Isn’t a sailboat the slowest of all human conveyances? If so why are so many so hung up on this idea of speed, willing to sacrifice all kinds of comfort etc so that they are a whole kt faster?
Me, I’ll take a smooth ride and a hot shower and eat a well cooked meal on passage, enjoying my electric head, make some water and listen to some good music and gasp arrive a whole day later than someone who was soaking wet and cold and half beaten to death and ate peanut butter sandwiches.

There is a whole lot more to cruising than who is fastest, I rate comfort way up there personally, your choices may differ.

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well no need to shed blood over trophy cases but would you not both agree that what one might put up with while racing just won’t be tolerated in a cruising boat that will need a modicum of comfort in the mix? So just where is that perfect blend of comfort and speed? I think we’re all gonna end up at, “I like my boat the best!”Which of course is the right answer.

You are both making some big assumptions based on a lack of facts:

"why are so many so hung up on this idea of speed, willing to sacrifice all kinds of comfort etc so that they are a whole kt faster?"

"what one might put up with while racing just won’t be tolerated in a cruising boat that will need a modicum of comfort in the mix?"

WHERE do you get the idea that we have to put up with lack of comfort to have a boat which can perform well?

I have the type of boat you deem must be uncomfortable yet my ride is smooth (no plunging bows in a head-on seaway, no crazy rolling), I have a hot shower (even if the engine has not been droning lately) whenever I want, and we cook excellent meals because my ride is stable enough to allow pots to stay on the stove. We drink fine wine from a long stemmed wine glass, (ALWAYS, and NEVER PLASTIC). We have a water maker and we make water when we need to, and since our boat can sail, it is quiet enough to enjoy music. When the off-watch awakens the question is often something like, "What is the wind blowing? It seems so quiet down here." The answer could be, "It's still over 26 and the seas are still rough, go back to sleep, your watch isn't for another 30 minutes."

And the second assumption is that we have these boats because we want to get to the destination sooner. That is wrong, at least in my case. We have a performance boat with a fin keel because we like the way it feels and performs when sailing. It feels alive and nimble, not dead and ploughing. We actually love the feel when the wind is up and the boat gets powered up and we surge ahead into the breeze, when we can feel the response to the wind and seas even when we don't have a hand on the helm, the whole boat reflects that feeling.

I know a woman sailor who will remain unnamed who can tell, when below deck, whether the jib is over trimmed because she can feel her boat's motion. I am attuned to the subtle movement of my boat and I can do the same.

There is not one type of boat which is good, or "best" but our boat is dry , clean, quiet, and easy to handle in heavy winds or seas. It always responds to the rudder, and it never requires huge sails to make it go. A cloud of sail, difficult to handle, is not required.

And yes, fast. On a moderate ocean crossing of 2000 miles we will arrive 2-3 days ahead and maybe miss the storm which is due to arrive soon after that. We will arrive with all of our fuel. We will arrive clean, well rested, and first. But most importantly, we will have enjoyed a fantastic relationship with the boat and the sea that comes from a boat which can sail and we won't be "soaking wet and cold and half beaten to death and ate peanut butter sandwiches." That is a vivid image, but untrue.

But yes, this argument is unwinnable, and "we’re all gonna end up at, “I like my boat the best!”Which of course is the right answer"

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well no need to shed blood over trophy cases but would you not both agree that what one might put up with while racing just won’t be tolerated in a cruising boat that will need a modicum of comfort in the mix? So just where is that perfect blend of comfort and speed? I think we’re all gonna end up at, “I like my boat the best!”Which of course is the right answer.

You learn quite fast how different cruising is from racing when you buy and old full keel boat when you had been used sailing to 30 -35 degrees off the wind at 15 knots or more and downwind/reach around 20-25 knots depending then suddenly you are sailing at 4-7 knots and 50-60 degrees off the wind but you can really deal with some big winds and waves

I didn't even carry an anchor when I raced, and of course no autopilot even though one would have been nice for the yearly 100 mile race and possibly even the 25-32 mile races

If cruising though comfort is much more important to me since it usually lasts much longer than a few hours.

Also, sometimes when racing with a wet suit on you do not have time to stop to go to the restroom!

Also, racing on a beach cat as skipper for 30 -100 miles and possibly urinating in your wet suit is going to be a lot different than racing or crewing on a 43' monohull for the same distance especially if you are sailing the beach cat singlehanded and handling the spinnaker.

I even put cam cleats on each hull to hold the spinnaker sheet so I could make other adjustments while still steering like mast rotation, traveler position, mainsheet tension, downhaul tension, all from the trapeze at times.

Spinnaker halyard was held by a spinlock.

You will learn lots about sailing on either boat while racing it and having "fun" at the same time.

[thomm225]

Here are 7 affordable full keel cruisers for under £10,000.

All are beautiful boats starting with the folkboat.

https://www.classicboat.co.uk/articl...rdic-folkboat/

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You are both making some big assumptions based on a lack of facts:

"why are so many so hung up on this idea of speed, willing to sacrifice all kinds of comfort etc so that they are a whole kt faster?"

"what one might put up with while racing just won’t be tolerated in a cruising boat that will need a modicum of comfort in the mix?"

WHERE do you get the idea that we have to put up with lack of comfort to have a boat which can perform well?

I have the type of boat you deem must be uncomfortable yet my ride is smooth (no plunging bows in a head-on seaway, no crazy rolling), I have a hot shower (even if the engine has not been droning lately) whenever I want, and we cook excellent meals because my ride is stable enough to allow pots to stay on the stove. We drink fine wine from a long stemmed wine glass, (ALWAYS, and NEVER PLASTIC). We have a water maker and we make water when we need to, and since our boat can sail, it is quiet enough to enjoy music. When the off-watch awakens the question is often something like, "What is the wind blowing? It seems so quiet down here." The answer could be, "It's still over 26 and the seas are still rough, go back to sleep, your watch isn't for another 30 minutes."

And the second assumption is that we have these boats because we want to get to the destination sooner. That is wrong, at least in my case. We have a performance boat with a fin keel because we like the way it feels and performs when sailing. It feels alive and nimble, not dead and ploughing. We actually love the feel when the wind is up and the boat gets powered up and we surge ahead into the breeze, when we can feel the response to the wind and seas even when we don't have a hand on the helm, the whole boat reflects that feeling.

I know a woman sailor who will remain unnamed who can tell, when below deck, whether the jib is over trimmed because she can feel her boat's motion. I am attuned to the subtle movement of my boat and I can do the same.

There is not one type of boat which is good, or "best" but our boat is dry , clean, quiet, and easy to handle in heavy winds or seas. It always responds to the rudder, and it never requires huge sails to make it go. A cloud of sail, difficult to handle, is not required.

And yes, fast. On a moderate ocean crossing of 2000 miles we will arrive 2-3 days ahead and maybe miss the storm which is due to arrive soon after that. We will arrive with all of our fuel. We will arrive clean, well rested, and first. But most importantly, we will have enjoyed a fantastic relationship with the boat and the sea that comes from a boat which can sail and we won't be "soaking wet and cold and half beaten to death and ate peanut butter sandwiches." That is a vivid image, but untrue.

But yes, this argument is unwinnable, and "we’re all gonna end up at, “I like my boat the best!”Which of course is the right answer"

Well, that's kinda my point. You have found that sweet spot, for you, of comfort and speed. And it can inform others who have not yet tried a boat of your design... if they are willing to try something new to them. And there may be others who have tried that kind of design and find its not for them for the kind of sailing they are doing.

[river251]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

Actual "Full keel" sailboats are rare among modern designs. These would be boats where the the line from the stem is a single curve to the full draft that then continues aft. More often, what people call "Full keel" boat presently are those with a double curved line from the stem; coming back shoal for as much as a quarter to third of the boat's length and then dipping down to the full draft that often continues contiguous to the rudder. These are more appropriately called "Long Keel" boats.

I had a long keel ketch that allowed for a 4'3" draft suitable for cruising on the Bayside of the Florida Keys and shallows in the Bahamas; however, if I were spending more time on ocean passages I would wan't a far deeper draft fin keel or a deeper draft long keel with a cut-away between the keel and the rudder.

Hudson, can you name an example of the actual full keel boats?

Why would you want a cut-away between keel and rudder, and can you name an example of that?

Thank you.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by river251

Hudson, can you name an example of the actual full keel boats?

I'm sure Hudson can as well, but I can. My boat: Rafiki-37. She's an actual full keel. Not some pretender. The real deal.

[Don C L]

These might be helpful. (None of these are particularly modern though now)The Downeaster or Downeast 38 has a pretty full keel, the Freya 39 has a cut away forefoot on the keel and then there is the Peterson 44 with fin keel and rudder on a skeg and then the similar keel/rudder on the Valiant 40. Less keel generally means more speed, better pointing ability and faster to turn. The photos are presented in reverse order.

[cal40john]

Brewer bite for that in between look.

https://www.panoceanic.net/tedbrewer.html

[DeValency]

Not trying to start a new debate here and while agree deeper keels are better for offshore and racing, eventually most offshore cruisers spend most time along the coast in anchoring, mooring and marinas where a deeper than 6’ keel is frequently a limiting factor.

So maybe a “more full fin keel” is a reasonable compromise - can be under 6’, still provide a good ballast and yet allow easier manoeuvring in tight places.

[malbert73]

I had a Luders 33 before and my current Tartan 40 tracks better on every point of sail
A pretty long keel and spade balanced rudder