Full Keel Sailboats

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Couple of generalizations.
Anything that is one monolithic piece is usually structurally stronger than the same thing pieced together.
I hadn’t really thought about an Amel’s keel in truth.

High aspect ratio’s are not about lift, not at all. How many bush / STOL airplanes do you see with long thin wings?
High aspect ratio’s are about drag, but they give up strength and other things to get the low drag, yes you can build strong “enough” but it’s difficult, much more difficult and you give up stiffness and other things, and of course in a boat you end up with a deep draft.
I for one don’t want to try to cruise a boat with a deep draft, even 5’ is limiting, where I cruise 8’ or more would be severely limiting, or simply just a no go. I know people that cruse deeper draft boats that simply write off the Bahama’s and places like the Rio Dulce, places that I want to visit but couldn’t with a high aspect ratio keel.
Then finally, face it. Bolt on keels are not known for their strength. No one says I’m glad my keel is bolted on, I feel more secure with it than a flimsy encapsulated one.
Yes of course being bolt on doesn’t have to mean weak, but it seems it often does, doesn’t it? Especially high aspect ratio keels. Now if you cruise where the depth is always deep and running aground is not a consideration, then a bolt on high aspect ratio keel may be for you.

Everything is a compromise, there is no one best design, if there was then it would be the only design.

I agree with every word of this.


Thanks for the correction about lift vs. drag.


To elaborate a little on the strength of bolt-on keels --


A full keel will almost always be stronger than any bolt-on keel for exactly the reasons stated by A64.


But the strength of bolted-on keels varies greatly. It is true as A64 says that high aspect bolt-on keels are hard to make really strong. And that is why they are not used much on cruising boats, even though they provide greatly superior performance. Once you reduce the aspect ratio and spread the load, a bolt-on keel can be damned strong, plenty strong enough for tough ocean boats like Amels, Oysters, etc.



I hit an uncharted rock in my boat once (an occupational hazard in the Finnish archipelagos), so hard that I rode up onto the rock bringing the bow thruster out of the water. When I hauled the boat, there was a small dent in the front of the lead bulb, but the antifouling at the hull-keel joint wasn't even wrinkled. Later I had the whole structure of the boat professionally surveyed; not a trace of any damage.


My boat, like most boats of this type and class, can be stood on her keel, and all the doors open and close without any problem. I have even dried her out once.


So full keels are strongest, but bolt-on keels can be plenty strong enough. But probably only by sacrificing some ultimate aspect ratio, and possibly only with some fairly expensive structural engineering.

As A64 says, everything is a compromise. Where he sails, he would not want my boat, which draws 7 1/2 feet. Where I used to sail in SW Florida, I'm not sure I could even get within sight of land with her! But I sure am glad to have that bulb keel when setting off on a long uphill passage.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Cruiser2B

Nice boat the Contessa 26 is...ive seen a few but never been aboard...heard head room is an issue.

I had a similar slightly bigger boat, the Alberg 30...she was a beautiful sailing boat. Very easy to maintain and single hand.
My current boat, Westsail 32, definitely rides better when condition kick up...but most definitely harder to maneuver in tight spots....neither one backs up worth a damn!

I really like the Alberg 30.

There's actually one on Craigslist down your way that looks great! And is about the same price as that C&C 36 I like except the Alberg has a nice new looking engine.

But I'd be going from old full keel boat to old full keel boat except it would be larger which would be nice

https://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/d/...949160129.html

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

A lot depends on how you approach sailing and why you sail.

A full keel boat will generally be heavier, and maybe safer in groundings. Some people swear that they track better than fin keel boats and have easier motion in seas. It will also be slower on most, if not all, points of sail, and if you love the feel of an exciting sailboat, you won't get it quite the same way with a full keelboat. But if tradition, security of a heavy boat, and homelike interior is your thing, and you don't mind being a little off the pace, the full keel boat might really suit you.

On the other hand a fin keel boat will generally be lighter and possibly subject to more damage in groundings although I'd debate that one. As for tracking, the power of a balanced and separate rudder far back from the keel makes the boat extremely responsive to rudder input. Being pushed off your line by a wave is no problem if the rudder puts you right back on it instantly. But the real reason for the fin keel boat is performance and feel. A designer would rarely put a small sail plan on a fin keel boat, so they are usually powered up. They may really come alive in 10 knots of wind and you can feel that. You reef them down early and then they fly with small sails. (You can tell it excites me just talking about it). So if you love sailing more than a feeling of security that comes from heaviness, a fin keel (and a spade rudder) would be for you.

Ocean passages, any boat can do it. You might wind up motoring more with your full keel boat, or, with a fin keel you may find you can sail any direction in any breeze, so you do.

This is our boat, we've sailed it across all the oceans.

Nice.

Looks fast also.

Does it have a roller furling jib/genoa?

I can't tell in the picture.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Crabpot105

Thanks, but you have to give it to the old full keel boats which can bounce their encapsulated keels off the bottom for a while if they happen to run aground without causing any damage.

Not so with a bolt on keel I'm thinking which means should I buy one I'd have to be more on the ball with navigation in low water and not just relay on how the water and waves look to determine depth which is my normal method now

I'd argue this and say it definitely depends on the design. On my last boat, also a Catalina 30. We once hit a rock about 4-5 inches up from the bottom of the keel, under power at full speed. The boat pitched forward and jumped upwards violently, skidded across the top of the rock and off the other side. ( FWIW it was an unmarked rock and we were on the correct side of the markers). We had the keel inspected and aside from a small bit of damage to the lead at the impact site, there was no other structural damage.

[Don C L]

Browsing through here, not to flog any dead horses, but I think it is useful to distinguish between long keel and full keel. Typically full keels are also housing a lot more inertia and they are trying to plow a bigger hole in the ocean, and the more blunt entry can lead to noticeable loss in momentum in steeper seas, all of which are of no help for speed and pointing. But my lower displacement to length ratio and long encapsulated ballast keel is faster and more responsive, even if it still suffers from longer keel liabilities compared to fin keels. So I’m just saying I think it may be useful to consider long keels separately, especially those with D/L 300 or less. (Some might say then that my own design has none of the benefits heavy displacement and none of the benefits of a fin keel! So is it then the worst of all choices? well, not to me!)
Also, as has been mentioned, the boat’s motion can also be an important consideration. Once sailing, my own long keel settles into a nice, comfortable, predictable (to me) motion. I have sailed Catalina 32s and 36s and a lighter fin keel is certainly faster and points well, but they are more, well, bouncy. I guess we all get used to what we prefer, but the times I’ve gotten queasy sailing have more often been on the lighter ones with fins. But that’s just me.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Crabpot105

Nice.

Looks fast also.

Does it have a roller furling jib/genoa?

I can't tell in the picture.

No, it has a headfoil but it does not roll. We put sails up and down.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

No, it has a headfoil but it does not roll. We put sails up and down.

Nice.

Just goes to show you why we sail the boats we do.

Your boat would be quite a bit to handle for a singlehander in big wind, whereas my boat with it's roller furler and ability to heave to is much easier to handle alone.

I don't even need to use a winch handle most times when raising the main

I probably just need to accept some of it's short comings and be happy with what it can do

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Crabpot105

Nice.
Just goes to show you why we sail the boats we do.

Your boat would be quite a bit to handle for a singlehander in big wind, whereas my boat with it's roller furler and ability to heave to is much easier to handle alone.

I don't even need to use a winch handle most times when raising the main

I probably just need to accept some of it's short comings and be happy with what it can do

Our boat can become quite a handful if caught in strong wind with a large headsail. We've never set it up for single handing, for that reason. But with two of us, we know how to do it.

However. all of our sails can be hoisted without winching. You stand at the mast and pull the halyard down, raising the sail. It is very fast and easy. However, we have a second person to pull on the halyard tail. important! And to finish off for the proper tension. Then...

No, you're right. Wings is set up for two or more persons.

[wesevans]

A long fin with a skeg mounted rudder is also a good option.

[Ardbeg]

While I agree with Mike re Quebec City, it is way worse further down river at Ils aux Coudres. That was the wildest I have seen anywhere in the world.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Are these the best for sailing offshore?

Not necessarily. There are fin keel designs that do very well on offshore long passages, bulbs and wings could help as well - again, if the keel isn’t too narrow (or short - like with racers). I’d say most of the long passage cruisers today own fin keels and the manage well the directional stability.

[thataway41]

I raced fin keel boats (as well as a few modified full keel) for many years. When I was dong long ocean passages, short handed, the full keel boat I choose was far easier to control, and did well in over 40' breaking seas, with engine ticking over, (Keeps some flow across the rudder even in turbulent crests), auto pilot steering, and storm jib sailing quartering down wind. I have sailed fin keel boats in lesser conditions, where there was a lot of "work" in keeping the boat under control. I doubt that the pilot I had would have been able to cope if there had been a fin keel.

The next long distance cruising boat was a smaller Cal 46, which had more of a cutaway longer keel--with spade rudder, and it also handled well in heavy conditions. Both of these boats were slower than most of my racing boats. I would trade comfort and safety for speed of a passage any day. Just my opinion, with a couple of hundred thousand miles under the keels.

[Paul Howard]

The Swanson 42 of GILow in the photo is a modified full keel with cutaway forefoot and attached keel hung rudder.
I once owned a similar boat but did not like the shore distance between the centre of lateral resistance of the keel and the turning point of the rudder. It was quick to turn but not that stable when running off the wind, especially in big waves. It was also a handfull to steer when heeled and that big barn door rudder was trying to lift the stern out of the water with all that leverage from rudder post to transom.

I later owned a boat with a long fin keel with a separate vertical skeg hung rudder at the aft end of the waterline. It turned and maneouvred very well and was more directionally stable when sailing off the wind. The smaller and more efficient rudder made the boat easier to steer when heeled, even though both boats were of similar size and displacement.

It was similar in configuration to the Nicholson 58 photo.

[Cellodane]

If you ever plan to sail to Maine, a full keel is a MAJOR advantage when you enter the lobster buoy minefields. A wrapped prop is a nasty inconvenience...
the water is COLD.

[Luff Shack]

I started sailing keelboats by crewing on a Pearson Triton for JAM racing back in 1987 on Lake Erie.

In 1988 my wife and I purchased a used Cape Dory 28.
We raced that boat in various JAM series as well. Didn't know any better about the fin keels back then. We actually were the gun boat a few times when a major wind shift favored our side of the course.
Our racing strategy was inspired by George Costanza. Do the exact opposite! We would just sail the opposite tack of all the other boats on the weather leg.

It was only when I delivered a friend's Catalina 30 down the shoreline on a beat to weather did I really understand how much better a fin keel boat can go to weather.
My view was changing about traditional hull forms.

I remember reading about the Scheel Keel that was invented long before the bulbs and fins came along.
I found one on our next boat; a Tartan 34 Mk II that only drew 4'-6".
With the hydraulic backstay adjuster, it's performance to weather was excellent when racing.

We then had a short stint with a Tartan 10 before ending up with a C&C 35 MK III that drafted 6'-8". That boat had the most balanced helm on all points of sail of any other boat I have sailed. I had it for 13 years. Rob Ball knew his craft when he designed that boat.

What came next was our current boat, a Corbin 39.
We sail it as a masthead rig but retained the retractable inner forestay and running back stays.
Keel-wise it is a moderate fin with a seperate skeg and rudder.

While the C&C 35 could spin on a dime, the Corbin takes a bit longer to come thru a tack.
I single hand it quite often. Turning while docking requires taking advantage of the off-centerline drive shaft with a good understanding of the wind at hand.
If I can't make a turn, I just come full stop and let the stern dog paddle on the prop walk with the next initial burst of forward throttle.

Sailing-wise, the Corbin can cover some ground. 7 to 8 knots is typical. Very stiff boat with excellent tracking ability.
When I sold the C&C and purchased the Corbin, I told my wife I was transitioning from an F-16 fighter plane to a DC-3. Both very good for their intended purpose.

Just to stay sharp, I also recently purchased a Corsair F-27 trimaran when the need for something different needs to be satisfied, I looked around for 30 years hoping to hop a ride on one, never happened. Now people ask me to take them for a ride. Go Figure.

So I have experienced quite a few different keel configurations over the past 30 years.
Full keel, moderate fin, deep fin and dagger board.
Internally and externally ballasted. Everything has their pluses and minuses.
I celebrate the differences.

I don't claim to be an offshore sailor. The most I have been underway for an extended period is two weeks.
For the time being the Corbin 39 is our 11 ton daysailer.
As I approach retirement, it is a good boat to grow old with.
With apologies to Goldilocks:
This keel is too full! This keel it to deep! The Corbin's keel is just right.