Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate

[Pelagic]

I agree LE, I would not have joined this group nor judged them by a few extreme signs , but the numbers seem significant enough for Trudeau to meet them
Or am I missing something?

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

IF AND WHEN a national referendum should be put to a vote on major government restrictions on personal freedoms.

Uh, didn't we just have a federal election? Pretty major "referendum"....

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I agree LE, I would not have joined this group nor judged them by a few extreme signs , but the numbers seem significant enough for Trudeau to meet them
Or am I missing something?

I wish Trudeau hadn't so loudly slammed the door in their face so soon. He could have made some sort of broad "we're all pretty tired of this" statement of sympathetic agreement, followed by "we're so close, bear with us" and, together with the provinces, a guesstimated timetable for relaxation of COVID measures, and finally a level-headed explanation that removing a cross-border trucker vaccine mandate would require the cooperation of the US in also removing theirs, to have it mean anything. This could have taken place in a public meeting with organizers and some spokespersons.

But he said out loud what most of us think the protest is about, and who's in it, and that played perfectly into the plans of those who intended it as a lightning rod for anti-Liberal sentiment. Which has only increased the level of acrimony and convictions on all sides, and a late-stage rapprochement is less likely... unless he's a better politician than I take him for.

[Auklet]

When Trump was office, "Defending Democracy" was the trumpet call to resist everything, mindlessly and with passion, of that elected Administration. Even our centuries old immigration laws. Now, "Defending Democracy" is the trumpet call against those resisting another elected Administration, but who are now the bad guys and not the good guys. It seems when you're in power democracy is working, when you are not, it's failing somehow.

Is democracy absolute rule by a popular majority? Is that what you have in a Parliamentary form of government? I doubt it. Seems to me I've heard of many coalition governments. No one party (set of views) has a majority. So, when those views diverge democracy ends? Really? One cannot have productive discourse against those kinds of attitudes.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Is democracy absolute rule by a popular majority? Is that what you have in a Parliamentary form of government? I doubt it. Seems to me I've heard of many coalition governments. No one party (set of views) has a majority. So, when those views diverge democracy ends? Really? One cannot have productive discourse against those kinds of attitudes.

You haven't done your homework. This will help.

Jason LaFace, Canada Unity's Ontario organizer for the convoy, has stated that the intent of the protest is to dissolve the government.[54]

He's literally saying he wants to dissolve an elected government...

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Debates over science only really work when both sides stay within the science. I'm reminded of the debates between William Shockley (Nobel for the transistor) and experimental psychologists (I'm one) over the intelligence of blacks versus whites.

or Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins with various apologists, always great for a youtube pick me up, when I'm bored lol

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Shrew

The foundation of science isn't debate. It's empiricism and reproducibility. Debate is a foundation of Philosophy which IS NOT a science. This entire premise is misguided.

What benefit would there be in debating the science of a virus. There are only two camps here (Science Vs Joe Rogan).

You forgot falsifiability. To be valid, a scientific theory has to be falsifiable

[neg]

"Many who early on decried the potential cost of lockdowns were wildly wrong. There hasn't been a wave of increased suicides. The majority of people and businesses have been weathering this. Economies are still chugging along."

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the above comment.
I AM a Dr. (of medicine - not a PHD)
Pediatrics - mostly adolescents

I have had more of my patient population attempt suicide in the past 18 months than I have seen in the 10 years previous combined.

Last summer one of my patients - an 12 year old girl hung herself in her closet.

try telling that mother that all this social isolation and political BS is not harming out children.

Before you start flaming - I know that a single data point doesn't make for a good study.

But anyone that doesn't believe that our children are suffering from all this is are full of crap.

Dr G

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You haven't done your homework. This will help.

Jason LaFace, Canada Unity's Ontario organizer for the convoy, has stated that the intent of the protest is to dissolve the government.[54]

He's literally saying he wants to dissolve an elected government...

I doubt that will work.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by neg

"Many who early on decried the potential cost of lockdowns were wildly wrong. There hasn't been a wave of increased suicides. The majority of people and businesses have been weathering this. Economies are still chugging along."

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the above comment.
I AM a Dr. (of medicine - not a PHD)
Pediatrics - mostly adolescents

I have had more of my patient population attempt suicide in the past 18 months than I have seen in the 10 years previous combined.

Last summer one of my patients - an 12 year old girl hung herself in her closet.

try telling that mother that all this social isolation and political BS is not harming out children.

Before you start flaming - I know that a single data point doesn't make for a good study.

But anyone that doesn't believe that our children are suffering from all this is are full of crap.

Dr G

And nobody's saying there hasn't been quite a bit of suffering, much of it falling disproportionately on the vulnerable, like kids. It has been tough.

But as I specifically said, the predicted overall rise in suicides has not yet happened.

Lockdowns hurt. But what was the alternative? I expect you know better than I what would have happened to healthcare or society if the numbers of COVID patients needing hospitalization was greater than it was.

[SailingHoot]

Hard to see them as a "sincere group of people" as they maliciously drive their f150s along the access routes to the hospitals in Vancouver. Cowards the lot of them. What boogeyman will next strike fear in their little hearts?

What this thread has to do with cruising I don't know and I hope it gets deleted.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

And nobody's saying there hasn't been quite a bit of suffering, much of it falling disproportionately on the vulnerable, like kids. It has been tough.

But as I specifically said, the predicted overall rise in suicides has not yet happened.

Lockdowns hurt. But what was the alternative? I expect you know better than I what would have happened to healthcare or society if the numbers of COVID patients needing hospitalization was greater than it was.

I think you keep missing the point. A vast majority of citizenry in the US at least got onboard the "flatten the curve" so as not to overload the HC system to the point of what we saw in Europe. Trump got everyone in the Executive Branch, his agencies, to make Operation Warp Speed successful in producing an emergency-use vaccine. Many lined up to take it voluntarily. Then came the current administration with a mind to FORCE healthcare choices on people who did not really need or want them with promises that could not be kept, etc., nor respected even by the folks making them, evidently. NOW is what people are responding to. They did their civic duty. Crisis has abated, so let's move on. No need to cancel freedoms in the long haul. Governments are getting dangerously close in my opinion to enabling insurrectionists to gain a stronger foothold on the coattails of legitimate, if organized, protests, as we saw in 2020 which was cheered on by certain media. That cat is is definitely out of its bag. And I don't think Big Tech's punitive attempts to suppress it will be successful.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Auklet

I think you keep missing the point. A vast majority of citizenry in the US at least got onboard the "flatten the curve" so as not to overload the HC system to the point of what we saw in Europe. Trump got everyone in the Executive Branch, his agencies, to make Operation Warp Speed successful in producing an emergency-use vaccine. Many lined up to take it voluntarily. Then came the current administration with a mind to FORCE healthcare choices on people who did not really need or want them with promises that could not be kept, etc., nor respected even by the folks making them, evidently. NOW is what people are responding to. They did their civic duty. Crisis has abated, so let's move on. No need to cancel freedoms in the long haul.

You're talking the US situation. If you want to protest that, don't come to Ottawa, or make Canada's protest a proxy for yours.

If I understand correctly, Biden's administration was faced with a stall in vaccine uptakes, and that's where US mandates (and other ideas) come from. Other countries were considering even stiffer ones.

There is a marked difference in the COVID responses mounted by Canada and the US. With different results. And the crisis is ABATING. Not yet abated, but hopefully on its way out.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You're talking the US situation. If you want to protest that, don't come to Ottawa, or make Canada's protest a proxy for yours.

If I understand correctly, Biden's administration was faced with a stall in vaccine uptakes, and that's where US mandates (and other ideas) come from. Other countries were considering even stiffer ones.

There is a marked difference in the COVID responses mounted by Canada and the US. With different results. And the crisis is ABATING. Not yet abated, but hopefully on its way out.

Like or not, we're all (deep) in it together.

[N Coast Murray]

Originally Posted by davil

...take care,enjoy the show.

Egad, no thanks. This whole thread is going on ignore