08-02-2022, 16:02
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Bogue Sound NC
Boat: 1987 Cape Dory MKII 30 Hull #3,
Posts: 1,490
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
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09-02-2022, 00:38
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#62
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CF Adviser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by sv_pelagia
Uh, didn't we just have a federal election? Pretty major "referendum"....
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One of the things I admired about the Dutch government was that they held numerous quick referendums on key issues that a significant part of the population felt ...it was needed.
A short period of discussions debates and education then a vote was done.
If what the Government was proposing failed by a large enough number.... it became a vote of no confidence
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09-02-2022, 06:44
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 51
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Its been 2 years. Masks did little to help as no one was diligent about it being n95s, the lockdowns have been shown to have only done 0.2% improvement (and that does not take into account the increase in suicides, etc from it), the vaccines did not perform as promised (90% plus) and have been pretty much useless at stopping it spreading, infecting, etc. They reduced deaths, yes, but mainly on those already at deaths row. Free gym memberships and tax credits for weight loss would have done better for society.
This is 100% about freedom. Freedom from political restrictions. The science is out. The vax is out. People need to make their own decisions and asses their own risk. Life must go on.
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09-02-2022, 06:47
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Boat: C&C
Posts: 330
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Why is it that Pfizer won't release their trials results on the effects of the vaccine for 10 years? Originally they announced they wouldn't release their data until 75 years!!!
If they have this data, why not release it now??????? What are they trying to hide and when will the exceptions for litigation against pharma companies be suspended and they made to go back to the standard time tested trial periods!!!
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09-02-2022, 06:51
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Newport, RI
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 59
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
More childish theatrics. This whole protest has the maturity level of a six year old who is having a temper tantrum because it is raining and the can't go outside.
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Really, too stupid for words. "Freedom" convoy? Freedom from what? Freedom to refuse to wear a mask? Are you kidding me??? The people who chant "my body my choice" are missing the much larger point (whether from dishonesty or abject stupidity I cannot tell): it IS your choice to get sick. It is NOT your choice to be a carrier and infect others who end up stressing our health services. If you want to be in the presence of others, get vaxxed and wear a mask. Or just stay home.
I thought that this was a sailing site, not a forum for Karens to vent nonsense..
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09-02-2022, 07:05
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Taiwan
Boat: Young 42
Posts: 138
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Thank you to all the cruisers who have pointed out the flaws in the "public debate" argument. Debate all you want, freedom lovers, but don't spread misinformation. I live in Taiwan now, a country whose residents, like most Canadians and other responsible peoples around the world are accustomed to doing their part for the public good. It's such a sacrifice to wear a mask in a confined public space, isn't it. And did someone say that masks are ineffective? In Taiwan, a densely populated country of nearly 24 million, everyone wears masks as mandated by law, and there have been a total of 851 deaths since the beginning of the pandemic. In the US, there have been more than 900,000 Covid deaths in a population of 332,000. There are also far fewer hospitalizations here. I don't need an epidemiologist or a conspiracy theorist to tell me whether masks work or not. They aren't 100% effective, but the numbers don't lie.
Someone: "You're wearing a mask outside, and it's useless."
Me: "You're wearing camo in the city, and I can see you."
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09-02-2022, 07:09
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 51
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Obesity is the #1 cause for deaths in the US, both Covid related and every other morbidity associated with it. Taiwan is a much healthier country overall regarding obesity, etc. Remember Covid specifically targets fat cells. Correlation is not causation.
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09-02-2022, 07:23
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#68
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,861
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by leandroflaherty
... Remember Covid specifically targets fat cells. Correlation is not causation.
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In a recent study [1], posted to the preprint database bioRxiv, on Oct. 25/21, scientists experimented with fat tissue obtained from bariatric surgeries, to see if the tissue could be infected by the coronavirus.
They found that fat cells, known as adipocytes, could become infected, and developed a low level of inflammation. They also found that immune cells housed within the fat tissue, called macrophages, also became infected, and kicked off a much more intense inflammatory response.
In addition to these experiments, the team examined fat tissue from patients, who died from COVID-19 infections, and found coronavirus particles, in the fat that surrounded various organs. Viruses like HIV and influenza can squirrel themselves away in fat tissue, as a way of hiding from the immune system; several experts told the NY Times that SARS-CoV-2 could theoretically do something similar, making fat a reservoir for the virus.
The new research has not yet been peer-reviewed, or published in a scientific journal, but assuming its results stand up to scrutiny, the bottom line is: ‘the virus can infect fat cells directly’
Preprint - Not peer reviewed:
[1] “SARS-CoV-2 infects human adipose tissue and elicits an inflammatory response consistent with severe COVID-19" ~ by Giovanny J. Martínez-Colón et al
“... Our work provides the first in vivo evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in human adipose tissue and describes the associated inflammation ...”
➥ https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....465626v1.full
More about ➥ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/h...t-obesity.html
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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09-02-2022, 07:32
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Taiwan
Boat: Young 42
Posts: 138
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by leandroflaherty
Obesity is the #1 cause for deaths in the US, both Covid related and every other morbidity associated with it. Taiwan is a much healthier country overall regarding obesity, etc. Remember Covid specifically targets fat cells. Correlation is not causation.
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There is no doubt some truth in what you point out about obesity being a contributing factor in Covid deaths, as are many other health risk factors. But, I can tell you that there is no shortage of obese people, cigarette smokers and other unhealthy lifestyle choices here in Taiwan. You seem to have an idealized image (racist?) of Asians. A much greater risk factor is ignoring common sense and listening to idiots on TV and internet. Wear a mask. It is effective to some extent. Of that I have no doubt. What's the downside?
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09-02-2022, 08:13
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: J/99
Posts: 827
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by leandroflaherty
Its been 2 years. Masks did little to help as no one was diligent about it being n95s, the lockdowns have been shown to have only done 0.2% improvement (and that does not take into account the increase in suicides, etc from it), the vaccines did not perform as promised (90% plus) and have been pretty much useless at stopping it spreading, infecting, etc. They reduced deaths, yes, but mainly on those already at deaths row. Free gym memberships and tax credits for weight loss would have done better for society.
This is 100% about freedom. Freedom from political restrictions. The science is out. The vax is out. People need to make their own decisions and asses their own risk. Life must go on.
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There is no way to honestly make these statements above claiming the steps we took did nothing.
I concur that ultimately we need to debate the loss of freedoms in a fulsome way, though for the most part people had choices. If, at some point, science proves there is a short or long term health impact from taking the vaccines we will be in an awful mess.
If your mind goes to the place of 'the health impact was for only a few people' then you should expand your thinking to the actual Covid death rate if you are going to have a balanced and informed perspective.
__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
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09-02-2022, 08:28
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 140
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auklet
I think you keep missing the point. A vast majority of citizenry in the US at least got onboard the "flatten the curve" so as not to overload the HC system to the point of what we saw in Europe. Trump got everyone in the Executive Branch, his agencies, to make Operation Warp Speed successful in producing an emergency-use vaccine. Many lined up to take it voluntarily. Then came the current administration with a mind to FORCE healthcare choices on people who did not really need or want them with promises that could not be kept, etc., nor respected even by the folks making them, evidently. NOW is what people are responding to. They did their civic duty. Crisis has abated, so let's move on. No need to cancel freedoms in the long haul. Governments are getting dangerously close in my opinion to enabling insurrectionists to gain a stronger foothold on the coattails of legitimate, if organized, protests, as we saw in 2020 which was cheered on by certain media. That cat is is definitely out of its bag. And I don't think Big Tech's punitive attempts to suppress it will be successful.
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WOW are you out of touch with reality. Trump got the vaccines developed but that was the end of his contribution. The crisis was not abated until after Biden took power. The Delta wave was bad enough fuelled mainly by people who realized that Trump lost the election because of his mishandling of the pandemic. Over 900,000 of your countrymen died and you think your solution is working.
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09-02-2022, 09:17
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#72
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Madeira Park, BC
Boat: Custom steel, 41' LOD
Posts: 1,406
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auklet
Sorry, but a right or freedom is unconditional. Think about the meaning: “…endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights…”. Endowed with unalienable rights. Does not sound conditional on responsible behavior. Can’t rescind. What some want it to read is “provisionally granted ‘rights’, rescindable if not used responsibly”, like a driver’s license. Think about the philosophical hollowness of that idea. Couldn’t build a nation on that view of the society. Some folks just object to being forced to take shots on the say so on a majority of others, especially since the purpose has changed from an epidemiological one (stop the spread) because the stuff is everywhere now, to one of personal health and well-being “because it’s better for you if you do catch it” pushed by the government, etc. Those folks know what they are about, and I doubt it’s about shirking their civic duties, IMO.
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I thought this was a Canadian-oriented thread. Why are we quoting the American Constitution as if it applies universally? The US is almost unique among developed nations in that individual rights trump collective rights - and look at the mess they are in.
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09-02-2022, 09:19
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Madeira Park, BC
Boat: Custom steel, 41' LOD
Posts: 1,406
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
I find it interesting that our long-running Canadian Covid thread was shut down by the moderators largely on the basis that it had few references to cruising or sailing. I've not read a single reference to cruising or sailing on this one.
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09-02-2022, 09:22
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#74
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 138
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auklet
Sorry, but a right or freedom is unconditional. Think about the meaning: “…endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights…”. Endowed with unalienable rights. Does not sound conditional on responsible behavior. Can’t rescind. What some want it to read is “provisionally granted ‘rights’, rescindable if not used responsibly”, like a driver’s license. Think about the philosophical hollowness of that idea. Couldn’t build a nation on that view of the society. Some folks just object to being forced to take shots on the say so on a majority of others, especially since the purpose has changed from an epidemiological one (stop the spread) because the stuff is everywhere now, to one of personal health and well-being “because it’s better for you if you do catch it” pushed by the government, etc. Those folks know what they are about, and I doubt it’s about shirking their civic duties, IMO.
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No rights or freedoms are unconditional. Your right stops when it interferes with mine.
Regardless the moderators should shut this thread down.
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09-02-2022, 09:26
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#75
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,554
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Re: Top Canadian Doctors Challenged to a Debate
This thread has now been closed by the moderators because it has not been directly related to seafaring.
TrentePieds
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