Are My Batteries Toast?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Paul L

More accurate when read at the correct time of day I guess? Since most cruising boats have solar on all day and many/most add any extra charging during daylight, it still seems it wouldn't give me the info I want to make the normal everyday charging decisions. I'd have to learn when to believe and when not to. If in reality I would! need a standard battery monitor along with the SmartGauge, then I guess I put it in the extra toy to have onboard if I want some more instrumentation catagory.

Makes me think of the old broken watch saying (prior to digital). A broken watch is still correct twice a day.

Paul,

There are three types of people in this little electron world of ours

1. coulomb counters

2. SG folks

3. both

4. none of the above

See I told ya, 4!

They are tools. That's all. Ken is new to all this. Many of us with coulomb counters learned how to use them, how to program (not REprogram) them, and how to understand the trends and realities of NET amperage (which some still don't get).

I have a Link 2000 1998 model, still works just fine. I have a small solar panel so I don't have to stay plugged in when I'm not there.

I know how to use the tools I have.

I've read Dockhead's discussion of his coulomb counter and SG experiences, and his own conclusions.

And Ken's impatience is frustrating, for him for sure, and for us. Sometimes it helps to read what SGs do when being charged and listen up to what he's being told, and also to relax and just give it a few days.

But like his separate loooooong thread on using his whole electrical system, he'll get there.

Good luck.

[john61ct]

The specs I've read are within 4% at rest, and off by maybe 10% when not.

When Maine Sail tested against several high-end calibrated AH-counters, the SG was most accurate.

Short of a hydrometer, that's state of the art.

And most people don't put in the ongoing work a shunt-based unit needs to be even that (less) accurate.

SmartGauge does better without the futzing around.

Yes, for SoC only, but that's what it's for.

Many get by without even knowing or caring about such info, or at least don't think it's worth the investment for their use case.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Paul,

There are three types of people in this little electron world of ours

1. coulomb counters

2. SG folks

3. both

4. none of the above

See I told ya, 4!

They are tools. That's all. ........

Ah damn, I've been button holed into another category! I have two of number one onboard. I guess that makes me an evangelical. If I got a SmartGauge I could do majority voting between the instruments.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The specs I've read are within 4% at rest, and off by maybe 10% when not.

When Maine Sail tested against several high-end calibrated AH-counters, the SG was most accurate.

Short of a hydrometer, that's state of the art.

And most people don't put in the ongoing work a shunt-based unit needs to be even that (less) accurate.

SmartGauge does better without the futzing around.

Yes, for SoC only, but that's what it's for.

Many get by without even knowing or caring about such info, or at least don't think it's worth the investment for their use case.

So without a second meter for current counting you would not know if you were at rest or not. So the accuracy would be hard to judge using just the instrument. Seems like that is a futzing factor.

[a64pilot]

I am going to have to put all my grounds on a bus so that I can install an AH counter, I have all the parts, maybe in Brunswick

Smart Gauge is I believe incredibly accurate in determining SOC, but cannot tell me the banks capacity. However with an AH counter I should be able to determine capacity without doing a capacity test, SH will tell me exactly in percent of overnight use, AH counter should tell me exactly how many AH that is.
For example if my SG says I used 25% and my AH tells me I used 150 AH, then my 660 AH bank is now a 600AH bank, cause 4 X 150 = 600

All theory at this point, but I think it's viable

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I am going to have to put all my grounds on a bus so that I can install an AH counter, I have all the parts, maybe in Brunswick

Smart Gauge is I believe incredibly accurate in determining SOC, but cannot tell me the banks capacity. However with an AH counter I should be able to determine capacity without doing a capacity test, SH will tell me exactly in percent of overnight use, AH counter should tell me exactly how many AH that is.
For example if my SG says I used 25% and my AH tells me I used 150 AH, then my 660 AH bank is now a 600AH bank, cause 4 X 150 = 600

All theory at this point, but I think it's viable

Your math is OK as long as you add in the error ranges, say +/-4% (optimistic) on the SmartGauge and +/-10% on the counter.

[john61ct]

Yes most of the time if you want current AH capacity would require the accuracy that comes from performing the test protocol properly.

But guesstimating may sometimes be good enough too.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Paul L

So without a second meter for current counting you would not know if you were at rest or not. So the accuracy would be hard to judge using just the instrument. Seems like that is a futzing factor.

Really?

Personally to know that my bank is at rest, I just flip the switches that isolate it, easy peasy.

Critical loads are just as easily switched between Main and Reserve banks.

Alt output is hard-wired, but even when the engine's running, flip the field disconnect and all output stops.

[Kenomac]

I want to take a moment to thank everyone who's contributed to this thread. Very much appreciated.



Ken

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I don't know how to equalize the batteries.

Just fyi, but if the batteries are older and starting to sulphate, equalizing them at high voltage causes the sulfate deposits to slough off the plates and if there is enough of it, it can pile up and short out a cell. In other words, equalization can make things worse on older banks.

How old are these batteries?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Your math is OK as long as you add in the error ranges, say +/-4% (optimistic) on the SmartGauge and +/-10% on the counter.

Yes, but right now all I know is my consumption is 15% of SOC overnight, but how many AH is that? Is my 660 AH bank a 600 or maybe even 500 AH bank? If can track somehow a good guess on capacity maybe ai can forecast when it needs replacing.
An issue is my inverter doesn't show any amps used until it exceeds 10. But of course say an 8 amp load constant is a lot, but maybe it's only drawing 1?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes most of the time if you want current AH capacity would require the accuracy that comes from performing the test protocol properly.

But guesstimating may sometimes be good enough too.

Maine Sail has the required equipment, I could maybe cob something close enough in my hangar, but on a cruising boat, who is equipped to do that?
Even if I found someone who was, that would mean several days in a Marina and schlepping my whole bank to them, and of course paying for it.
Way to much money and work for me, close ought to be better than what I have now, which in no idea really.

See I guesstimate my overnight useable as 15% of 660 which is 99 AH, but surely my bank isn't really at rated capacity at two years old, but what is it?

[a64pilot]

See I think Ken once the SG gets un stupid can tell the health of his bank with his AH counter and SG, then he can program into his factory system a SWAG at capacity, now he has to guess I think.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Really?

Personally to know that my bank is at rest, I just flip the switches that isolate it, easy peasy.

Critical loads are just as easily switched between Main and Reserve banks.

Alt output is hard-wired, but even when the engine's running, flip the field disconnect and all output stops.

Come on, you were the one that said that one of the key benefits of the SmartGauge gauge is that it didn't require futzing. Of course you could shut off loads and let things settle every time you wanted a reading from the smart instrument. I just wouldn't do that 3 or 4 times a day and neither would most users.
To each his own.

[neilsty]

When my batteries were getting to the point of needing replaced the bow thruster would stop working after initial use. Basically pulling a very high load drawing the batteries down showing their inability to hold sufficient capacity. On an Oyster with 8 x 6 volts and similar AH to Kenomac. Very simplistic way of diagnosing shot batteries, but it all comes down to do they work well enough for your needs, or not. I could get by with charging them every 8 to 12 hours to keep my fridge running which had a 24v cut off, but heavy power draw of the bow thruster revealed they were shot. My replacement Gells lasted less than a year due to incorrect wiring by the guy who put them in ( not me). Basically he put a small lead under one of the main battery leads causing high resistance and frying half a bank. Had a guy come out with a proffessional load tester to confirm,but the bow thruster really showed their failure.