First Principles For A New User

[petit bateau]

Originally Posted by rgleason

@petite bateau
Are you going to help?

Previous Post
I have a question for you about the first page of the User Manual Basic.
We've tried to pare down to essentials here, and summarize with links for more information, providing a step by step process.

My question right now is the "User Interface" part too intimidating, or will users just select from it as they find they need it? Also do you think users will first go through the User Interface items one by one and get familiar, then continue with the installation?

Also we'd like some feedback on the GNSS/GPS page from your own experience, with any suggestions.

Yes, but it was time to go to bed last night. I'll get back on the subject of the User Manual etc, hopefully later today.

Also - quickly - on the other subject of the veracity of the Greek Hydrographic Office (GHO) charts and/or O-charts, I have just checked another example location, that of Messolonghi harbour some 70-miles southest of Vonitsa. The marina* on the west side of the harbour was built in the pre-2015 timescale and includes some jetties and an infilled hardstand area that all show very obviously on the Google images. But they don't show at all on the O-charts set. This is a similar scale of mismatch between reality and the O-charts presentation as at Vonitsa. The question is whether this is a problem within the O-charts organisation; or within GHO; or to do with the linkage between both organisation (whether contractual or admin or whatever). And of course the next question is whether that is deliberate in some way, or an oversight. From my perspective I have just put €58 into O-charts for a set of charts that I would expect to be as up to date as reasonably possible at time of issue given the advertised 2-week update release cycle. If they had a warning sign on them that says "not updated since at least pre-2015" then I might still have bought them, but I would have done so with pre-warning.

[bcn]

Originally Posted by petit bateau

The question is whether this is a problem within the O-charts organisation; or within GHO; or to do with the linkage between both organisation (whether contractual or admin or whatever).

Again: in case of Greece o-charts sources the cells from IC-ENC, which is the official outlet for the Greek ENCs. The official ones released as S-63 and others licensed for example by us. No difference in content. One by one identical.
There is no editing from our side, just opening those chart sources for OpenCPN.

Looking into the site of your example, there are two relevant charts, one usage band 4 (Approach) and one usage band 6 (Berthing), OC-30-41PPA4 and OC-30-20CQQ6.
The meta data of the charts are showing a latest edition of 2023-11-27 and 2017-09-29.
And indeed in the berthing chart there are no harbour structures at all presented.
The latest Google Earth photo is from 2019 btw...

Checking the complete chart material for missing or obsolete structures is just not feasable for o-charts and it's purpose.
Smaller, not commercial harbors in Greece are not a priority for the Greek HO, as it seems. We will add a remark about that fact to the description of the chart set.
Questions from user side to the HO might help perhaps as well (a little bit).


Buoyage in regions where those are getting reset and modified quite often are a similar challenge.
Or Italian smaller harbors.

[rgleason]

@petit bateau
You have now high jacked the thread and OP Southersunfish question.

[petit bateau]

Originally Posted by rgleason

petit bateau I've incorporated most of your changes here.
https://opencpn.org/wiki/dokuwiki/do...artsorg_charts


The Greek Isles were subjected to a very tight monetary squeeze a number of years ago and owed banks millions. I expect that the chart agency has meager resources for this. We are lucky there are charts available. On the other hand Greece is a major shipping country. o-charts will know more.


But you can look at your Greek charts Chart Bars and learn more about them. See User Manual Basic then pick Chart Bar and Chart Panel you want to know more about Chart Buttons under Chart Panel Options > Display Options


I have a question for you about the first page of the User Manual Basic.
We've tried to pare down to essentials here, and summarize with links for more information, providing a step by step process.


My question right now is the "User Interface" part too intimidating, or will users just select from it as they find they need it? Also do you think users will first go through the User Interface items one by one and get familiar, then continue with the installation?


Also we'd like some feedback on the GNSS/GPS page from your own experience, with any suggestions.

@rgleason :

re "I have a question for you about the first page of the User Manual Basic. We've tried to pare down to essentials here, and summarize with links for more information, providing a step by step process. My question right now is the "User Interface" part too intimidating, or will users just select from it as they find they need it? Also do you think users will first go through the User Interface items one by one and get familiar, then continue with the installation?"

When I go to that UserManualBasic I am mentally comparing it with the OpenPCN home page https://opencpn.org/ and the 'start' link that flows directly from it https://opencpn.org/OpenCPN/info/quickstart.html which gives a QuickStartGuide.

You already have my feedback that the O-charts plugin should be preloaded. I have since come to the conclusion that it would also be very helpful if two actual sample charts could be preloaded. Ideally these would be a typical NOAA chart and a typical O-charts chart. Neither of these need to be particularly large, just large enough and representative enough that they serve to ground any tutorials etc from then on. In both cases this means that a user can see that the system ought to be able to work, and is worth persevering with. At the moment I suspect a lot of newbies give up on the first rungs of the ladder.

Comparing the QuickStart with the BasicManual I think the structure of the QuickStart is more logical, and should be mirrored, i.e. 1. Download/install OpenPCN; 2. Download/Install charts; 3. Get GPS. Only then should one move newbies along with the rest of the 4) how-to-use-it stuff. So restructure the BasicManual sequence with this in mind, and break it up with headings that map exactly across to the QuickStart headings. Everyone wants to get the thing loaded and working, and only then turn to the how-to-use-it stuff if they have to as a RTFM moment.

The actual contents of each sub-section in the BasicManual seem OK to me. Writing manuals is always a PITA. I'm sure I'll find details to query in due course, but once the structure is revised to match the QuickStart structure; and once the headings are inserted to break it up and make it look less scary, then it is OK.

Re the GPS/GNSS sub-section I'll wait until I can make a connection before I comment. Another few days I guess.

=========

@rgleason :

You may not wish to think that First Principles for a New User should include veracity of the charts from O-charts, which is a 'sister' organisation to OpenCPN. I do, that is why I raised it. If you'd like it to be discussed on another thread then please tell me which one and I'll head over there.

In the meantime I now remember why one of my neighbours (in Vonitsa) threw away OpenCPN after using it for 2-3 years. He is a very experienced skipper. It was because he nearly ran into a unmarked breakwater/etc somewhere in France/Spain (I forget exactly which) that was not marked on the O-charts he was using. A somewhat similar breakwater to the one in Vonitsa, that had been there for many years, except that he encountered it in the dark in bad weather and was very lucky not to wreck his boat. In a major port, not some minor out of the way port. A big breakwater that was marked on the Navionics charts .... and so he now runs Navionics on a Raymarine plotter, not OpenCPN. And of course he does not recommend use of either OpenCPN or O-charts.

@bcn :

Re Messolonghi - I cannot recall what is on the Navionics charts in that detail. That marina was built pre 2017, a few years prior so maybe 2008-2012 era. Certainly it was built by 2012, but I think it may date back to 2008. If you are saying that the Greek ENCs are dated 2023 and 2017 then that is interesting. But without the Navionics ones to hand I can't compare.

Re Vonitsa - I am absolutely definite that the breakwater is marked on the Navionics charts and my Navionics chart has not been updated since 2017/2018. It was built pre-2017 though I cannot recall when. Could you please look and see when the Greek ENCs are dated that do not have it marked. What I cannot understand is the workflow that would cause Navionics to have the correct groundtruth, but for it not to appear in the Greek ENC.

As a general point I well understand that things take time, and there are cost pressures etc. And especially smaller ports are not prioritised for updates. But the question is how the Navionics (etc) charts do seemingly have more up-to-date info than the O-charts from the national hydrographic offices. That is what I am trying to understand by a process of examining these particular instances.

Just thoughts from a New User.

[rgleason]

petit Ok-I get your point about charts and new users. I wouldn't want to run into a breakwater either.
1. Will mirror quick start on website.
2. Reason it is in the other order that some users starting this thread had trouble with the interface and size of text etc, and we have not identified how it happened. It is very unusual I think, so I will move this section.
3. Language often needs to be changed I think.
Thanks.



I'll be very interested in what you think of the GNSS/GPS section as it has been changing.

[rgleason]

User Manual Basic is reorganized now to match the website Quckstart


Please note that the Quickstart links are incorrect and go to OLD 2021 manual.
Nobody reported that these links are not updated... since 2021!!!!

[petit bateau]

[QUOTE=rgleason;3885426]User Manual Basic is reorganized now to match the website Quckstart


Please note that the Quickstart links are incorrect and go to OLD 2021 manual.
Nobody reported that these links are not updated... since 2021!!!![/QUOTE]

Ah, the info in those links look rather more polished than the ones I looked at this morning

Restructured is good.

Regarding putting two small charts in, say one NOAA one and one O-charts one. A lot of training organisations, yacht clubs, etc would likely happily match their training courses to OpenCPN if there were a couple of dependable example charts in there. Ideally one with some tidal streams/heights and one with different buoyage etc. Again that would tend to encourage more people to climb the adoption curve. I suspect that if O-charts were to approach the national hydrographic offices asking if one would care to release just one chart free, then someone would say yes. (And if OpenCPN were to write a basic chart plotter course with student and instructor materials, and maybe a short video or two, then uptake would be even faster).

[petit bateau]

Another suggestion.

The default in the downloaded OpenCPN should be for Charts/DisplayCategory = ALL.

I was trying to figure out why a lot of rocks etc in areas I know were not showing. Then I stumbled across this setting. For safety reasons I would suggest the out-of-the-box default should be set to ALL.

(Again I am raising an eyebrow re the chart data quality for the Greek HO/O-charts vs Navionics. Quite a lot the Navionics charts seem to have better data. Where are they getting it from if not from Greek HO ?)

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by petit bateau

(Again I am raising an eyebrow re the chart data quality for the Greek HO/O-charts vs Navionics. Quite a lot the Navionics charts seem to have better data. Where are they getting it from if not from Greek HO ?)

If you feel like spending some money, Chartworld has, what I believe to be, some of the best charts for OpenCPN.

I can't say for sure if they include the same details for that area as Navigation though.

https://www.chartworld.com/shop/search?keyword=Greece

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by petit bateau

(Again I am raising an eyebrow re the chart data quality for the Greek HO/O-charts vs Navionics. Quite a lot the Navionics charts seem to have better data. Where are they getting it from if not from Greek HO ?)

Indeed, Navionics chart for Messolonghi shows much more detail.


Could this be due to Greek RASTER vs ENC chart differences? O-Charts perhaps only reflects ENC, whereas Navionics perhaps Raster, or a combination of both? (We've seen this issue in O-Charts in Canada and Mexico, where the official ENC charts do not include all raster features.)

[bcn]

o-charts is only using the ENCs for Greece. To repeat: we do not edit charts.

There exist raster portfolios - for example from IMRAY - for those waters. IMRAY has some additional coverage for smaller marinas in Greece. With the availability of the Greek ENCs we decided to drop the raster charts, as the workload to maintain RNCs is high for us. Quite some manual work. Will need to discuss that point again.

Chartworld offers either S-63 charts (official ones) or Chartworld charts, their format of S-57 charts licensed from HOs. That's the equivalent of the o-charts ENCs.
Formerly Chartworld did license from Navionics.
That source was aborted by GARMIN after the purchase of Navionics.
https://www.chartworld.com/shop/nav_enc
So the sources of Chartworld and o-charts are the same. For sites we don't have ENC licenses we recommend Chartworld S-63 charts.

And btw.: Chartworld belongs now to Teledyne, the company producing CARIS, the most important charting software for nautical charts.
Another step shrinking down the number of players in the world of nautical charts.

[rgleason]

I've asked about two New User ideas:
1. Include o-charts_pi as an internal plugin.
2. Include sample charts of a small area.

The answer is "wontdo". Why?

1. o-charts has a different development schedule, tying it to opencpn is a bad idea that would prevent improvements and fixes. Also installation is quite easy and new users should become familiar with use of plugins.
2. We encourage every new user to enable Chartdownloader and to select and install some charts while getting set up. The user will learn the system and UI, small hurdles that 99% can accomplish. The other 1% may need special help.
3. As always we ask users and new users to help us make these steps easier to achieve by improving documentation and UI.
4. We thank the individuals who suggested these changes, and let us know about them. OpenCPN depends a lot on user input for improvements, bugs and support.

Thanks.
(This is coming from your OpenCPN Team.)
If I have mis-represented something here, I apologize, it is my fault.

[petit bateau]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

Indeed, Navionics chart for Messolonghi shows much more detail.


Could this be due to Greek RASTER vs ENC chart differences? O-Charts perhaps only reflects ENC, whereas Navionics perhaps Raster, or a combination of both? (We've seen this issue in O-Charts in Canada and Mexico, where the official ENC charts do not include all raster features.)

An interesting suggestion. If that is the case it is odd. The implication is that (say) the Greek HO receives the notification that the Vonitsa breakwater is built; then the GHO adds the feature to the raster RNC chart but not to the vector ENC chart. That would be odd. I can understand why old (pre-vector) info might not all have come across from the rasters when the vectors were first introduced; but it is less understandable for significant more recent features from approx 2008-2012 which were built during the period when the vector charts were up-and-running. And which have made it into the Navionics charts. Is there any pattern in the equivalent differences in Mexico, and Canada. And given my neighbour's excitement this is also an issue in France/Spain.

Originally Posted by bcn

o-charts is only using the ENCs for Greece. To repeat: we do not edit charts.

There exist raster portfolios - for example from IMRAY - for those waters. IMRAY has some additional coverage for smaller marinas in Greece. With the availability of the Greek ENCs we decided to drop the raster charts, as the workload to maintain RNCs is high for us. Quite some manual work. Will need to discuss that point again.

Chartworld offers either S-63 charts (official ones) or Chartworld charts, their format of S-57 charts licensed from HOs. That's the equivalent of the o-charts ENCs.
Formerly Chartworld did license from Navionics.
That source was aborted by GARMIN after the purchase of Navionics.
https://www.chartworld.com/shop/nav_enc
So the sources of Chartworld and o-charts are the same. For sites we don't have ENC licenses we recommend Chartworld S-63 charts.

And btw.: Chartworld belongs now to Teledyne, the company producing CARIS, the most important charting software for nautical charts.
Another step shrinking down the number of players in the world of nautical charts.

I have received and understood the message that O-charts does no editing. However I am still trying to understand - by way of enquiring about two relevant examples - how it is that two different charts (say, Navionics and Greek vectors) can have such different qualitity in data. Is O-charts able to explain this ?

Originally Posted by rgleason

I've asked about two New User ideas:
1. Include o-charts_pi as an internal plugin.
2. Include sample charts of a small area.

The answer is "wontdo". Why?

1. o-charts has a different development schedule, tying it to opencpn is a bad idea that would prevent improvements and fixes. Also installation is quite easy and new users should become familiar with use of plugins.
2. We encourage every new user to enable Chartdownloader and to select and install some charts while getting set up. The user will learn the system and UI, small hurdles that 99% can accomplish. The other 1% may need special help.
3. As always we ask users and new users to help us make these steps easier to achieve by improving documentation and UI.
4. We thank the individuals who suggested these changes, and let us know about them. OpenCPN depends a lot on user input for improvements, bugs and support.

Thanks.
(This is coming from your OpenCPN Team.)
If I have mis-represented something here, I apologize, it is my fault.

1. Pre-installing the O-charts downloader would be staying within the OpenCPN cycle, not the O-charts cycle.
2. 99/1 ....... hmmm ....... I guess opinions vary.
3. But thankyou for the feedback.
4. I guess the opportunity to have a stable starting point that might also encourage adoption for educational coursework is also not considered important to OpenCPN.

Originally Posted by Sabado

If you feel like spending some money, Chartworld has, what I believe to be, some of the best charts for OpenCPN.

I can't say for sure if they include the same details for that area as Navigation though.

https://www.chartworld.com/shop/search?keyword=Greece

Thank you.

I'd first like to understand what is 'wrong' with the process behind the realword >> Greek-HO >> O-charts, but 'right' with the process realword >> Greek-HO >> Navionics.

After all I have just spent some money on the O-charts version in the expectation that at worst they would only be 2-weeks out of date. The discovery that two of my 'local' harbours have significant discrepancies and are 10+ years out of date is quite an attention-getter. If the harbours I know are a worry, then what about the situation in the harbours I don't know. Should I throw my hands in the air and switch to GoogleEarth (i.e. cut tiles and roll-my-own-charts; not exactly a good starting point for a beginner)? O rshould we all throw away OpenCPN and switch to Navionics charts on Raymarine plotters because we cannot trust the O-charts we are presented with ?

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by petit bateau

Quite a lot the Navionics charts seem to have better data. Where are they getting it from if not from Greek HO ?)

That's a good question. Navionics would "manipulate" the charts by there own. I've seen Navionics at home where no one has made soundings for 100 years and suddenly there are new depths and "better" curves? I'm somewhat distrustful. I recall the old story about Garmin making own charts where the depths inside the three meters curve where calculated by a smooth angle from the curve to land. Even if there where rugged rocks and stones around. That's a long time ago now but...

[nohal]

That Navionics has their own cartographic department is common knowledge, I thought.
That they are collecting data from their users to augment their charts is also no secret. These two things combined result in them being able to often have more and more up to date data on their charts that the official chart material from the HOs does not.
How good their data is nobody but them knows, but in heavily navigated areas like the Med there is no reason not to believe that it is pretty OK.