Encouraging live aboards

[Rumrace]

For sure Greenwave. I put a few offers in on tax seizures. Too frugal to win one. Big $$$ in flipping them. The city is the most likely to seize. The Feds go after real crooks. One property was Old mill and it was seized from 3 Russian and 1 Italian con artist group. All but two deported 2 in jail. 4 homes with mortgage scams. You could have bought one of 14 Ferraris seized from the mob, houses, yachts last February

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry European states are extremely successful and are not based on Marxist dogma , stop with the “ bumper sticker “ discussions.

It’s not Marxist dogma to ensure your population is cared for medically , educated and housed

The US is an outlier and cannot be regarded as better or “ normal “

I’ve seen poverty in the US you don’t see in disgraceful failed third world counties. This is one of the wealthiest countries , it should hang its head in shame in places. I was shocked at the living conditions I saw.

Clearly “ robber baron” capitalism has completely failed in the US resulting in the need to cancel nonsensical student debt ,etc etc , medical poverty is a disgrace in a modern society. One only has to look at bidens plans to see what needs to be done.

Simply because you let people sink into poverty does not make you “ free” true freedom doesn’t exist in the US no more then it exists elsewhere.

I didn’t bring US politics into this thread you did. I merely stated basic human rights are medical care , education and housing . This has been accepted all over Europe Australia , Canada , Japan , etc. only the US remains an outlier. At least certain trends in the US suggest change is afoot. A more caring society is a good start.

Outliers are not good indicators for arguments

In European states , various schemes exist to help the poor access housing , including state aid, shared equity, social housing etc.

This is only right and proper.

Shunting the poor onto derelict boats is an abomination for any wealthy country. It should be in no way encouraged

Financially secure people who chose a reasonable liveaboard lifestyle is a fine choice, it’s largely extremely limited as a percentage of population and is largely contained in warmer climes.

The whole reason for the supposed issues in America are simple .the government got involved in our personal lives.

Now question what is your income rate. For people making say 45,000 usd equivalent?
Here we are paying 10% as tax .

Myself I live on my boat as that is where I make a living. I have worked in the maritime trades most of my life . I just take a guest moorage in a marina while I'm working on a vessel there then I sail home.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Pandor

Did you just bump up the $900k to $1.2M? Now I know you are out of touch with reality. Not knowing exactly where you live, I can’t confirm, but you must certainly be conflating the price of a house with the total price of the improved real property. But even then…

Real property is an appreciating asset. Maintenance on your $1.2M property is probably roughly equal to your $30K boat. You may make out short term living on that boat due to taxes and utilities, but long term the property will easily make you money while that boat will just continue to depreciate until some day it is worthless.

Also, $1.2M is well above average throughout Canada. And $30k is well below.

I put 900k originally as that was what it was a few years and then actually looked it up - it's 1.2 million now

And sure, property is of course a better investment if you can afford the downpayment. Which I (and most of my friends my age) cannot

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

Is your home in a place that has property taxes? If so, then the failure to pay those could result in the tax authority taking your house. Extreme YES, Possible YES>

We have small property taxes our constitution forbids the state from seizing your primary property except in a declared international war.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by newhaul

The whole reason for the supposed issues in America are simple .the government got involved in our personal lives.

Now question what is your income rate. For people making say 45,000 usd equivalent?
Here we are paying 10% as tax .

Myself I live on my boat as that is where I make a living. I have worked in the maritime trades most of my life . I just take a guest moorage in a marina while I'm working on a vessel there then I sail home.

UK is 20% plus 11.5% NHS/Benefits/Pensions contribution.. First £12000 is tax free..
Anything over £37000 is taxed at 40%.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by boatman61

UK is 20% plus 11.5% NHS/Benefits/Pensions contribution.. First £12000 is tax free..
Anything over £37000 is taxed at 40%.

Here to get to 20% ( actually 19.4% ) is 100k usd.
24% at 200k
But from nothing to 10k is 7% but with our tax codes you don't actually pay anything till 50k and above

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

The whole reason for the supposed issues in America are simple .the government got involved in our personal lives.

Now question what is your income rate. For people making say 45,000 usd equivalent?
Here we are paying 10% as tax .

Myself I live on my boat as that is where I make a living. I have worked in the maritime trades most of my life . I just take a guest moorage in a marina while I'm working on a vessel there then I sail home.

You can’t compare simple income tax , you have to look across a basket of costs and taxes. The US is not a low tax economy , on average the US tax take is similar to the EU.

What’s yours property tax , mine is €180 a year

I get free medical care for my taxes , am old age pension , free public transport, discounted electricity etc etc.

What I do know is in the us 8:1 personal to corporate contributions to the tax take , where I am it’s 2:1

So in my case free markets capitalists like Apple , google , Facebook , phizer , Baxter , pay for the housing , medical , etc via their taxes

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Pandor

Did you just bump up the $900k to $1.2M? Now I know you are out of touch with reality. Not knowing exactly where you live, I can’t confirm, but you must certainly be conflating the price of a house with the total price of the improved real property. But even then…

Real property is an appreciating asset. Maintenance on your $1.2M property is probably roughly equal to your $30K boat. You may make out short term living on that boat due to taxes and utilities, but long term the property will easily make you money while that boat will just continue to depreciate until some day it is worthless.

Also, $1.2M is well above average throughout Canada. And $30k is well below.

I put 900k as that was what it was a few years ago - then after I posted I double checked and it's actually 1.2mill

Although while checking again to post this link, apparently in the 6 months since the last article I saw it's now up to 1.4 million.

https://victoria.citified.ca/news/vi...-outsell-sfds/

Thanks for pointing out that real estate is a better investment than a boat, I definitely would not have realized that myself!

The problem is affording the downpayment - a 20% downpayment is like 230,000 CAD which I (and all my friends my age) cannot afford. I only paid off my student loads a few years ago!

Owning real estate is pretty much a dream unless you have family help, and as rent is currently 800-1000 a month to rent a room and share a house with people or 1600 - 2000 to have your own place, buying a boat and then paying ~600 a month to live right downtown on it is a pretty sweet deal.

Also - I love it, and love sailing/being on the water so I would chose this anyway, but saying a house costs less than a boat is pretty laughable (having said that I am right in the middle of a big refit so uh, that probably isn't the case for me right now)

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You are completely correct.

It’s entirely inappropriate to suggest boat living is an acceptable substitute for housing policy as a general social aim. Again it’s rich people telling poor people how to live while glossing over 100s of issues and details.

I fully agree with this however

[ForeverDes]

Originally Posted by smj

On the houses that I build and occasionally own my property tax and insurance runs about $1,000 per month, utilities $200-$300 per month, way more than the costs of owning and operating our boat. The house no doubt gains in value, while the boat maintains it value or may depreciate slightly.

I live in one of the cheapest states for cost of living, and I also build, buy and sell houses, and those numbers are pretty spot on, at least for 2-3 bedroom older houses. The new houses I build and sell tend to be more expensive for at least property taxes.
Oh, on a second read, $1000 a month for insurance and property taxes is way higher than I see here. I thought that figure was per year!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You can’t compare simple income tax , you have to look across a basket of costs and taxes. The US is not a low tax economy , on average the US tax take is similar to the EU.

What’s yours property tax , mine is €180 a year

I get free medical care for my taxes , am old age pension , free public transport, discounted electricity etc etc.

What I do know is in the us 8:1 personal to corporate contributions to the tax take , where I am it’s 2:1

So in my case free markets capitalists like Apple , google , Facebook , phizer , Baxter , pay for the housing , medical , etc via their taxes

Ok me personally I have no property taxes.
I have free medical , pension I paid into all my working life. ( like all of us)
Not free public transport but it's cheap .
I pay electric at a rate of .11 cents usd per kW but in port I only use about 15 kW per month .
Actually with our tax codes nobody pays any untill they make at least 50k usd. ( it's confusing as heck . You actually almost need to hire an accountant)
Could it be better yes . Make it a flat rate by income no deductions .
Stepped by income . )

The big companies you listed pay for 90% of my life.
(Retired US Navy) .

[goboatingnow]

Owning real estate is pretty much a dream unless you have family help, and as rent is currently 800-1000 a month to rent a room and share a house with people or 1600 - 2000 to have your own place, buying a boat and then paying ~600 a month to live right downtown on it is a pretty sweet deal.

Sadly this is the case these days for a lot of young people.

1. Few cities are suitable or have much of any live aboard marina space. In Amsterdam the boats on the canals are more expensive then cheaper housing in the suburbs.

2, the state really needs to help people buy , here , there’s a new first time buyers support package that’s really helping people get on the ladder.

3. If you’re in a real poverty trap, then help should come in subsidised mortgages and right up to free social housing in some cases. Here the state is building 25% more state housing this year because of the affordability crisis.

4. It was never easily to buy a house , mr father in 1955 was a salaried civil servant and he struggled to get a mortgage for his first house. I remember my first one in 1982. Not easy, and I was a well paid EE married to a teacher

My kids live in Brussels and Amsterdam. Both earn close to $100K a year. While they can afford 1500- 2K a month on rent ( high end apartments) they have to move way out to the “ burbs “ to buy. The solution is gov help and they will get some ( with conditions );

Boats are junk investments , the maintenance costs are high and berths costs are only going one way at well above inflation. These places are often outside public transport reach or have dubious reputations in some cases and are not regarded as safe. Shops are sometimes poor and night life for young people is missing.

As I said houses are for living in , boats are for sailing in. Let’s not get social priorities mixed up.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by alctel

Also - I love it, and love sailing/being on the water so I would chose this anyway, but saying a house costs less than a boat is pretty laughable (having said that I am right in the middle of a big refit so uh, that probably isn't the case for me right now)



I fully agree with this however


edit: yikes, double posted, sorry everyone

Refit well houses need it to . Roofing is not cheap ( i charged 150 per square aka 100sq ft all in ) average house 20 to 25 sq of roofing )
new waterheater well there goes a grand , new furnace well there goes 3 grand .
Electrical issues well you have to hire someone . ( on boat you can do your own )

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Refit well houses need it to . Roofing is not cheap ( i charged 150 per square aka 100sq ft all in ) average house 20 to 25 sq of roofing )
new waterheater well there goes a grand , new furnace well there goes 3 grand .
Electrical issues well you have to hire someone . ( on boat you can do your own )

Here modern ( post 1970 ) concrete houses require very little maintenance , certainly within the first 60 years, especially with pvc windows. Most maintenance is discretionary and largely “ remodelling “. Roofs are typically concrete tiles and largely indestructible . Properties requiring renovation are typically old brownstones or the odd rural house abandoned.

Most house maintenance here can be done without using professionals , with the exception of gas . But houses as I said need very little hardcore maintenance

Boats needs rigging , sails , engine repairs , anti fouling , etc etc. Boating is not called “ break out another thousand “ for nothing.

My recent house cost me €110 k, seven years ago , my neighbours identical one sold for €375 k this year. My last boat cost 180 k 15 years and sold in 2020 for 110k ( she was built in 1986 ) no boat has returned a net gain ( I’ve owned 7)

A major engine repair replacement on that boat would cost 30K , nothing in my house has that type of cost likely. Insurance would confer any damage.

I’m sorry a boat is not a substitute for a house in general , bad idea. It’s most certainly not a substitute for a proper social housing policy.

By all means if you like living on a boat ( small places ), do so. But it’s not a solution to any “ housing crisis “

[smj]

Originally Posted by ForeverDes

I live in one of the cheapest states for cost of living, and I also build, buy and sell houses, and those numbers are pretty spot on, at least for 2-3 bedroom older houses. The new houses I build and sell tend to be more expensive for at least property taxes.
Oh, on a second read, $1000 a month for insurance and property taxes is way higher than I see here. I thought that figure was per year!

That’s for Texas, no state income tax but high property tax. Building beach houses also drives the insurance cost up so about 2.5% property tax and 1.5% insurance, give or take. My figures were based on a $300k house, which is expensive to me but I guess below average?

[ForeverDes]

Originally Posted by smj

That’s for Texas, no state income tax but high property tax. Building beach houses also drives the insurance cost up so about 2.5% property tax and 1.5% insurance, give or take. My figures were based on a $300k house, which is expensive to me but I guess below average?

I'm not questioning your numbers at all. I know how inexpensive CoL is here in East Indiana. I was basing my numbers on $100k houses, give or take, built 30-50 years ago, where I was paying about $700 per anum property taxes and maybe $350ish in insurance. Indiana caps homestead (personal, primary dwelling) at 1% of value, farm ground at 2%, and investment properties, like the rentals I'm referring to, at 3%. At least I think that's the correct math.