Encouraging live aboards

[IslandHopper]

A recent article relevant to the thread.

https://www.kuow.org/stories/pirates...t-sound-waters

Pirates, gentrification, and the future of living aboard on Puget Sound

On a perfect day in Washington, you can see Puget Sound filled with boats — yachts, sailboats, and decades old vessels alongside shiny new cruisers.

While many local sailors are hobbyists, a lot of them live on their boats. And as prices rise across the region, there's a wave of new mariners looking to find affordable housing options on the water.

But life on the Salish Sea is arduous, and not completely free of the problems we run into on land.

In Liberty Bay, just outside Poulsbo, sits a constellation of sailboats. While most might strike passersby as typical Puget Sound anchorage, a handful of masts don skulls and crossbones, a recognizable symbol for pirates.

"Most people go with the Hollywood idea of pirates," says Thomas Gregory, known by some as Sir Thomas the Pirate King, captain of a black sailboat named the Lord Nelson.

But Sir Thomas the Pirate works fine by him, too.

"Frankly, pirates aren't a good thing. They still exist. They're still committing crimes on the water," he said. "Not that that's what's going on around here."

A group of sailors, including Gregory, is gathered around a long wooden table in the hold of an old Canadian navy vessel called The Badger. Also on The Badger are the ship's captain, who goes by Douglass Fir, Garth "Crusher" Levin, and Andy Woodford.

Each of these sailors come from different backgrounds, from welding to the mortgage business to wildland firefighting, but they've all gathered here for two reasons: a love of the open water and the rising cost of living on land, which they say is forcing more and more boaters into life on the water.

"What it's evolved to for a lot of people out here is living off the grid, and staying away from the system in general, and living a free life," Gregory says.

Gregory is the longest tenured of the group, living on the water for the last 10 years. That experience is one of the reasons some give him the title of "Pirate King," but it's also because he is a mentor for what is a growing fleet of new pirates like Levin and Woodford, who've only been on the water for the last year.

Gregory also runs his own nonprofit called Salish Sea Rescue, assisting in emergencies across Puget Sound.

"As long as you have a boat, you're willing to work on it and you're willing to learn, you don't have to be a good mariner. You just have to be willing to learn," Gregory says.

That mentorship is becoming increasingly important. As towns across the region deal with rising rents and prices, there are more people turning to life on a boat as an affordable alternative.

"More and more boats, that people can't afford the moorage for are being anchored out," said Thomas Rose, one of three Port Commissioners for the Port of Poulsbo. "And we've seen a two to three times increase in the last 14 months of that."

The rise in "offshore anchorage" — which includes but is not limited to people living aboard boats — coincides with a rise in derelict vessels.

These boats are old, barely operable, and are often left to rot and sink in the water. That's when derelict vessels become problem children for marinas. A single boat can cause thousands of dollars in damage if it leaks sewage or chemicals into the water, and even more if it sinks. If the boat isn't insured, those costs fall on the port.

As a result, marinas like the Port of Poulsbo have instituted more rigorous inspection policies and insurance requirements. It's a difficult balance to allow access to the services and safety of the port, while also supporting new boaters on vessels that might be a greater liability.

"We have others living on a boat that they maybe acquired cheaply through Craigslist, or for nothing at all," Rose says. "That qualifies as their home. It's a difficult thing to a judge as to what to do, as far as the regulation."

Even as sailors living on the water have helped (literally) on-board new offshore liveaboards, to their benefit and the port's, the relationship there isn't always harmonious. The liveaboards are adamant believers in the independence of their lifestyle, and that attitude can grate against the rules and regulations the port has to follow.

"They've kind of abused the system. They might come in on their boats and tie up in the wrong spot. They might leave something that's inappropriate vessel-wise," Rose says. "So sometimes that gets a little wearing on staff."

From the sailors' perspective, the new requirements from the port to ward off derelict vessels are affecting their ability to use the marina, too. While their vessels are older and rougher around the edges than many of the new fiberglass boats, Gregory says they're well maintained.

The liveaboards argue that changes in the marina are also coinciding with what seems like more hostility from those on land.

"People on land have always complained," Gregory says. "'Oh, there's a boat anchored in the water in front of my multimillion-dollar house.'"

As Andy Woodford recalls it, there was a time — about 20 years ago — when liveaboards who moved around were admired for their rebellious lifestyle.

"I remember the harbor masters going, 'That's a real sailor there, that guy's salty as hell.' And now they're 'trash,'" Woodford says.

The liveaboards have a long list of complaints, from claims that locals call in erroneous oil spills to get liveaboard ships moved, to accusations the port is purposefully trying to push them out of Liberty Bay in favor of newer, trendier boats. They say this is reflected in the new marina requirements, alongside increases in prices.

"I've lived here 20 years — I can't afford to rent in the town anymore," Woodford says, calling his predicament a form of gentrification. "So if I want to stay, it's on the boat or I have to move. They just don't have much use for blue-collar people."

In response, Rose said he has heard complaints levied against offshore boats from locals in Poulsbo, but was adamant there is no bias or discrimination coming from port staff toward pirates specifically.

"I'll say that some of the personnel situations and processes ha ve not necessarily been perfect, and the relationships haven't gelled," Rose says. "But I have not heard anything in particular from [Sir Thomas] or others that —frankly — I haven't attended to in commission meetings or privately."

One silver lining in the relationship is the annual Pirate Bash, taking place in August, which brings locals and liveaboards from the area together for a weekend of music and pirate-themed festivities. The bash provides a snapshot for what the future of this brand of "pirate" might look like: they enjoy the pier, while the port enjoys the business.

The bash also highlights the variety of those who call themselves "pirates." Some on their boats enjoy the annual celebration, dressing up and firing off vintage canons. But not all of them live full-time on their boats, like Gregory. And others feel trepidation about flying their pirate flags these days.

"It's for the fact that you're looked down upon," says Galen Gibson. "Most of the boats you see are pirate guys in here, but they won't admit it. They won't fly a flag for that reason."

Gibson says they understand how there might be backlash against so-called pirates — their freedom-loving lifestyle can turn some into troublemakers. But at the same time, there are people like Gibson, who are older and living on social security, who won't be able to keep up with rising insurance and slip prices.

Living as a "pirate" has never been easy. You're at the mercy of the waves and the weather. All the self-dubbed pirates are self-starters, taking Gregory's lead and teaching others the ropes. But it's a scary idea to many that even this lifestyle, with its thrift and independence, might be priced out of a rapidly changing region.

"This is a rich man's game now," Gibson says. "And you can't just get a boat and go out and enjoy yourself anymore. It's a dying community here."

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

A recent article relevant to the thread.

https://www.kuow.org/stories/pirates...t-sound-waters

Pirates, gentrification, and the future of living aboard on Puget Sound

Funny I didn't experience any of the supposed issues the winter I spent on the hook in liberty bay on my 1968 islander bahama 24 . And no it doesn't look like new but it was seaworthy and went sailing at least once a week but anchored in the same place at night just outside of the city marina .

[JoetheCobbler]

Here's a cost comparison.
The slip I'm in currently, $1200 year, water, electric,year round.
You can live aboard, no extra charges, nobody asks or cares.

The 3 story building 2 miles away I own, the taxes are in excess of $3000 a year.
The utilities average $250 month. Just put a steel roof on $25000
Going to paint the building, probably $3000
Going to replace the standing and running rigging on the boat in the spring, estimate <$3000 it's lasted 12 years, 8 trips up and down the east coast USA.
I'm living considerably cheaper aboard than ashore.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by alctel

The average house price where I live is now $1,200,000

My boat cost around 1/40th of that

In Vancouver it’s the same, a €£$ 500,000 is cheaper than any House in town……

[Mike OReilly]

Whether it is cheaper to live on the water is highly dependent on location. As I said, in my case there's no contest; boat life is much cheaper than any land life, outside of perhaps a hunting camp (cottage) in a semi-remote part of Canada. And even that would come with significant costs in the form of travel, and access to basic resources like food and fuel.

It's interesting to hear how things are different around the world. But clearly, there is no universal answer. Luckily, most here seem to understand this.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Whether it is cheaper to live on the water is highly dependent on location. As I said, in my case there's no contest; boat life is much cheaper than any land life, outside of perhaps a hunting camp (cottage) in a semi-remote part of Canada. And even that would come with significant costs in the form of travel, and access to basic resources like food and fuel.

It's interesting to hear how things are different around the world. But clearly, there is no universal answer. Luckily, most here seem to understand this.

One thing I haven't heard here is the psychological impact of boat lifestyle.
I know I would go nuts if I was dirt living

[goboatingnow]

T

Originally Posted by JoetheCobbler

Here's a cost comparison.
The slip I'm in currently, $1200 year, water, electric,year round.
You can live aboard, no extra charges, nobody asks or cares.

The 3 story building 2 miles away I own, the taxes are in excess of $3000 a year.
The utilities average $250 month. Just put a steel roof on $25000
Going to paint the building, probably $3000
Going to replace the standing and running rigging on the boat in the spring, estimate <$3000 it's lasted 12 years, 8 trips up and down the east coast USA.
I'm living considerably cheaper aboard than ashore.

Why would a house have a steel roof , what you describe sounds more like a commercial building

We need to compare the cost of maintainence of a small relatively modern house as to a small relatively modern boat.

My house was built in 1995. Other then the wife deciding she want a bathroom changed , there are no enforced maintenance projects.

The boat has ongoing maintenance including things that break , anyifouling etc. , plus haulout charges etc.

Boat operating costs 2x the house easily

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why would a house have a steel roof , what you describe sounds more like a commercial building

You haven't been around much have ya, just about every single house in the below links has a steel roof....

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...&bih=625&dpr=1

Steel roofing is very common worldwide and has been around for well over 200 years and is commonly used in new buildings today....

https://www.google.com/search?q=stee...&bih=625&dpr=1

[Pelagic]

I have no problem with the Wynns premise that a live aboard option is a consideration and their comparative numbers for Florida liveaboard vs waterfront property seemed fairly accurate.

They were also budgeting powerboat costs with the odd trip to Bimini.... which in itself could be pricess.

Personally I would rather see more newbie liveaboards on their own boat than partying barefoot charter boats anchoring near me.

I imagine all the mainstream cruising YouTubers are struggling for new content these days, so kudos to the Wynns for trying to offer up some ideas

[goboatingnow]

U

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

You haven't been around much have ya, just about every single house in the below links has a steel roof....

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...&bih=625&dpr=1

Steel roofing is very common worldwide and has been around for well over 200 years and is commonly used in new buildings today....

https://www.google.com/search?q=stee...&bih=625&dpr=1

Interesting, of course if you own massive houses then I presume you have the money.

Mines 1750 sq feet , none around this country uses steel roofs on domestic houses, if you had one you’d never sell it. The salt air would eat it in 10 years

You do get them on commercial properties , but not houses.

The point is you can’t compare McMansions to boats.

To me around the world the “ enforced “ lives-aboard community in western developed countries is very small, literally 10s of people in a small country, some more elsewhere , again this is those who felt “ forced “ into this route not those that “ choose “ the lifestyle

If you came along and then offered this group free social housing , how many would temain afloat ?.?.. I suspect most would abandon the boat.

Maybe the solution to the Florida derelict boating problems , is a state funded housing rescue project, I’m sure the Wealthy Floridians with big houses could stomach a small property tax rise to fund the program

[Fore and Aft]

Newhaul maybe you should start a new thread about the psychological impact of boat living.
I think there's way less isolation living on a boat. You can be as social or introverted as you want when living aboard. Dirt dwelling the social boundaries are stronger and you have to make an effort to interact with people.
We have definitely had more strangers onboard our yacht for coffee than we ever have had at home for coffee.
Goboatingnow we have steel colourbond on our roof and I bet 50% of Australia does as well.
I just googled average rents in our marina neighbourhood and it's between $500-$600 a week. So a $150 a week for 10 metre berth looks like a great deal.
Cheers

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Newhaul maybe you should start a new thread about the psychological impact of boat living.
I think there's way less isolation living on a boat. You can be as social or introverted as you want when living aboard. Dirt dwelling the social boundaries are stronger and you have to make an effort to interact with people.
We have definitely had more strangers onboard our yacht for coffee than we ever have had at home for coffee.
Goboatingnow we have steel colourbond on our roof and I bet 50% of Australia does as well.
I just googled average rents in our marina neighbourhood and it's between $500-$600 a week. So a $150 a week for 10 metre berth looks like a great deal.
Cheers

Thanks re steel , all domestic houses here use wood truss and concrete tiles. Steel only gets used on large unsupported span structures like warehouses. Houses don’t have large unsupported roof spans in the main.

I don’t agree re social isolation , this is more a function of the individual personality. We make an effort here to call into some who are very isolated on their boats. I know one or two people living at home in isolated rural mornings , cheap and free but very isolating.

But in my marina , which is relatively “ well heeled “ there’s fabulous social interaction , we’re just starting our winter activities , things to do every day from hill walking to art classes. Etc.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Newhaul maybe you should start a new thread about the psychological impact of boat living.
I think there's way less isolation living on a boat. You can be as social or introverted as you want when living aboard. Dirt dwelling the social boundaries are stronger and you have to make an effort to interact with people.
We have definitely had more strangers onboard our yacht for coffee than we ever have had at home for coffee.
Goboatingnow we have steel colourbond on our roof and I bet 50% of Australia does as well.
I just googled average rents in our marina neighbourhood and it's between $500-$600 a week. So a $150 a week for 10 metre berth looks like a great deal.
Cheers

That's what I am talking about the full time liveaboard community at least here is great we talk to eachother all the time help with various boat chores and meet almost daily for evening drinks or coffee. The marine community is a lot more social than any dirt based community.

Do you know the names of 10 people that live near you on land ? I'm sure when your cruising you know more people from other boats. It's easy to meet new people hell that's what an anchorage cruise is for . To meet new people to the anchorage.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

That's what I am talking about the full time liveaboard community at least here is great we talk to eachother all the time help with various boat chores and meet almost daily for evening drinks or coffee. The marine community is a lot more social than any dirt based community.



Do you know the names of 10 people that live near you on land ? I'm sure when your cruising you know more people from other boats. It's easy to meet new people hell that's what an anchorage cruise is for . To meet new people to the anchorage.

I think this varies greatly from community to community. I know many marina that are soulless boat parking lots.

I know several vibrant housing communities where interaction is enormous.

There’s a range of experiences and you can’t generalise that live-aboard may be better communities , often the “ hard up” keep to themselves anyway.

Again voluntary liveaboards that are financially secure and can afford to maintain a boat in good in a secure location , fine go for it

Don’t argue it’s some sort of general solution to housing or a housing crisis.

Encourage sailing and cruising , hell yes. Encourage destitute style , liveaboarding , err no, thanks.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think this varies greatly from community to community. I know many marina that are soulless boat parking lots.

I know several vibrant housing communities where interaction is enormous.

There’s a range of experiences and you can’t generalise that live-aboard may be better communities , often the “ hard up” keep to themselves anyway.

Again voluntary liveaboards that are financially secure and can afford to maintain a boat in good in a secure location , fine go for it

Don’t argue it’s some sort of general solution to housing or a housing crisis.

Encourage sailing and cruising , hell yes. Encourage destitute style , liveaboarding , err no, thanks.

Agreed . And there are no liveaboards in my marina but there are many full time cruisers .
That call it home base.