Galileo (European GPS) id down

[boatman61]

Revenge of the Brexiteers..
That'll teach em for shutting us out after using our money and expertise..

Oh.. and the liquer is Galliano..

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Revenge of the Brexiteers..
That'll teach em for shutting us out after using our money and expertise..

Oh.. and the liquer is Galliano..

+++!!!!


Exactly, Galliano !!! That ancient Italian system that helps us safely and securely navigate from one bar to another!



And we should stick to making good Galliano (and drinking it) here in the EU, and leave all the techy stuff to those who CAN!


;-))))))


barnakiel

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

I'd throw that question back and ask if you've gotten a bit too comfortable having GPS? How are your NDB (non-directional beacon) ADF (radio direction finder for boaters) approach procedures?

It hasn't been that long since I shot an NDB-A under IMC to minimums. The problem now is that so many of the beacons have been decommissioned, and aircraft no longer necessarily have an ADF.


But that isn't the backup plan. The backup plan, as I'm sure you know, is a network of VOR transmitters that are sufficient to provide a reasonable amount of guidance. For the glass cockpit guys, there's no difference, because the course computer can get a fix from two VORs just as easily as from the GPS, and the pilot doesn't see any difference.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

I'd throw that question back and ask if you've gotten a bit too comfortable having GPS? How are your NDB (non-directional beacon) ADF (radio direction finder for boaters) approach procedures? And how many PAR approaches do you think ATC (air traffic control) could handle pre hour? (Sorry, this is getting technical for non-pilots: PAR is where a controller literally "talks" an airplane down to a landing using ground RADAR. Most pilots have only practiced the procedure once or twice in their entire careers, and many airports don't have the controllers or radar to support it. The military fields that do support PAR approaches would be slammed.)

Failure of GPS would be a colossal mess, especially since many flights these days aren't navigated to waypoints, but instead fly "direct" using GPS for en route navigation. I'd expect a least a few "aluminum showers" from collisions.

I'm doubtful many pilots could hand-fly their aircraft during a PAR approach. The current crop of pilots, who spend 99% of their time on autopilot with fancy "glass" cockpits (few or no analog instruments) are so pampered by automation that when the automation quits or does something unexpected - they've forgotten how to fly. They are "systems mangers" and "redundant components." Which explains why we have seen so many accidents caused by mistakes a 20-hour flight student wouldn't make. The smallest problems these days can bring a plane down due to lack of basic flying skills in the dumbed-down ranks of pilots. And loss of GPS would be a serious distraction. In a recent conversation I had with a 787 captain, I asked: "What's it like to fly that ship?" His response: "I don't know. But ever since I became Captain, I've learned how to type 110 words per minute."

None of the pilots I know believe a wide-scale GPS failure would be anything less than an air traffic catastrophe.

Here's a story about unskilled pilots and their dependence on automation that's guaranteed to give you shivers: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/busi...ight-447-crash

You were Military, as a PAR or Precision Approach Radar is Military only approach, you won’t see that kind of functionality in the civilian world, it’s actually a very low tech approach and sort of assumes the aircraft has lost navigation capability.

As the aircraft I flew only had an ADF, I’ve shot a many a PAR and no gyro PAR.

The other gentleman who supposed with a moving map and a radar altimeter that an aircraft would know where it was was a little off.
It would take a very sophisticated INU, which they may have to know where they were, a Radar altimeter wouldn’t tell them much, and I’d suspect many airliners do have Radar altimeters.
They are a nice thing to have on an approach as a back up.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

There is an eLoran system in UK. It has very limited coverage. Russia has Chakya for the Arctic and Siberia which is similar to eLoran. Saudi Arabia has an original Loran-C chain still operating.

Germany, Japan and US have low frequency timing systems but these don’t support position or velocity solutions. The US (WWVB) coverage is spotty too. Japan (JJY) and Germany (DCF-77) coverage is pretty good in their respective coverages.

What is needed is a world agreement for a terrestrial position, navigation and timing system that complements GNSS so users could have an alternative source of position, navigation and timing. Just having an alternate source of precision time and position greatly reduces the motivation for bad actors to muck with all the GNSS systems around the world. Many high level people are concerned and I suspect there is a small army of engineers devising a workable alternative to GNSS.

We have some alternative sources: Galileo, GPS, GLONASS, maybe more on the way. The Italian ground infrastructure failed (Galileo). The others are up. We should be glad that the whole world has not agreed on a single solution.

[Lepke]

I used Loran A & C, and several other pre-gps systems. Loran requires transmission towers wherever coverage is required. Most of the world didn't have Loran and accuracy wasn't great when far from towers. All those towers are gone now.
You can buy a receiver that uses all three of the current satellite signals. I have one.

[Midnight Son]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You were Military, as a PAR or Precision Approach Radar is Military only approach, you won’t see that kind of functionality in the civilian world, it’s actually a very low tech approach and sort of assumes the aircraft has lost navigation capability.

As the aircraft I flew only had an ADF, I’ve shot a many a PAR and no gyro PAR.

The other gentleman who supposed with a moving map and a radar altimeter that an aircraft would know where it was was a little off.
It would take a very sophisticated INU, which they may have to know where they were, a Radar altimeter wouldn’t tell them much, and I’d suspect many airliners do have Radar altimeters.
They are a nice thing to have on an approach as a back up.

If you would read my post (#20). I said eLoran with radar altimeter, to give definitive verticle reference, as eLoran does not have that capability.

[transmitterdan]

What we need is not a replacement for GPS. What we need is an additional system to supplement and harden position, navigation and timing availability across the world.

Knowing one’s position accurately is a relatively new concept that is evolving into a kind of human right. Everyone expects to be able to locate themselves or their important assets rapidly, accurately and without restriction. The US is trying to provide that as a world wide service now and EU maybe in another 10 years. But both systems have the exact same vulnerabilities that can be exploited. Thus people can be denied this information or worse get false position or time information.

A Loran like system could harden up the existing system. Galileo doesn’t add much in that sense. It has some additional features but can still be jammed by tiny jammers that are nigh unto impossible to locate.

It may take 3 independent systems to get real security against threats of today and tomorrow.

[Cpt Pat]

A month ago, Collins, a maker of navigation gear for aircraft, apparently botched a software update of their GPS receivers. Result: "cancellation of hundreds of flights."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...lights-458819/

This was a receiver failure scenario, but points out the chaos that could ensue affecting aviation navigation. I envision that a total loss of GPS may impact air traffic control to such an extent that we could see at least a partial "ground stop" like occurred on 9/11.

By the way, modern iPhone and Andriod software support GLONASS. You may have a backup on board, and not know it. A smartphone is certainly more accurate than a sextant, though without charting software or paper charts (and the basic skills to plot positions on paper charts), not much easier to use. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/glonas...-knew-existed/

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

This was a receiver failure scenario, but points out the chaos that could ensue affecting aviation navigation. I envision that a total loss of GPS may impact air traffic control to such an extent that we could see at least a partial "ground stop" like occurred on 9/11.

In the event of a total loss of GPS, grounded aircraft would be a minor issue compared to the breakdown of the other services that rely on it for timing these days.

[Cpt Pat]

True. Failed cellphone network multiplexing, financial transactions, power grid management ... it's a long list.

And unlike GPS receivers approved for instrument navigation in aviation, most GPS receivers don't have receiver autonomous integrity monitoring (RAIM), so the user won't be aware of less-than-total failures.

Here's a description of the mess caused by a subtle error in an upload to the satellites: https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...-fails/486824/

"While GPS was initially conceived to aid navigation, globally synchronized time is now a much more critical function of the system."

[transmitterdan]

That’s why I have to chuckle a little when people fret about how they will find their way home when the GPS constellation fails totally.

If the GPS system fails totally like Galileo for more than a few hours people won’t want to go home. No electricity, no phones, no ATMs, no way to transfer money, no stock market, no amazon, no google, no Microsoft, and the list goes on.

[Cpt Pat]

If you don't want to sleep well, also consider that we have over 100 nuclear power plants in the US, and all of them are of the "boiling water" design.

Ironically, they are all dependent on power from the grid to keep their cooling pumps running for more than the few days of backup diesel power they have on site. Those pumps must, at all times, be running. Lose power to the pumps, and you can get 100 repeats of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster.

If the grid goes down, the clock starts ticking, and those reactors can start cooking off.

I know it's baffling that we have this vulnerability, but check it out. It's there.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

If you don't want to sleep well, also consider that we have over 100 nuclear power plants in the US, and all of them are of the "boiling water" design.

Ironically, they are all dependent on power from the grid to keep their cooling pumps running for more than the few days of backup diesel power they have on site. Those pumps must, at all times, be running. Lose power to the pumps, and you can get 100 repeats of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster.

If the grid goes down, the clock starts ticking, and those reactors can start cooking off.

I know it's baffling that we have this vulnerability, but check it out. It's there.

Capt'n Pat, I sleep fine.

If the power grid goes down, the diesel cuts in, for several days.
If the power grid seems like it will be down, order some diesel delivery.
If no diesel is not going to be available, start to withdraw the rods and shut down the Nuke. (Hey, doesn't the nuclear power itself have power to run the pumps?)

It does not baffle me, it seems rather safe.

Anyhow, I am not within radiation range of any reactors, and I have other, more immediate issues, to worry about.

Oh, the other thing is, what about the sky falling?

You know, even if we built scaffolding to hold up the sky, what if the scaffolding failed?

We could have bamboo back-up for the scaffolding but it could rot.

And anyhow there might be bamboo beetles.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

That’s why I have to chuckle a little when people fret about how they will find their way home when the GPS constellation fails totally.

If the GPS system fails totally like Galileo for more than a few hours people won’t want to go home. No electricity, no phones, no ATMs, no way to transfer money, no stock market, no amazon, no google, no Microsoft, and the list goes on.

Yeah, the millennials' phones might no longer tell them which bar their friends are congregating in tonight.

And most of what you say: "no phones, no ATMs, no way to transfer money, no stock market, no amazon, no google, no Microsoft..." that's all good for me, for a few days anyhow. After that, we'll barter for fuel and food and go sailing. (Oh, will the wind be down?)