My Rocna didn't hold in mud - a first. Confession from a cocky new gen anchor owner

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Goodall_M1

If going into Kalamos always listen to George!
(Getting out the next morning with wind coming onshore can be challenging!)

I unfortunately have, over the years, acquired a reputation for bad decisions when doing Med-moor with an anchor..

How many other people have gone for the "drop it well out and give it lots of scope" only to get within 3 feet of the quay and run out of rode, luckily the crew member with the stern lines hadn't tried to step off!

In the old days of going in bows-to with the kedge out you could quickly extend the rode by tying on another line.

I remember having to add two extra lines on when mooring in Kioni, and being told by my sister "you see that cottage on the other side with the green door, our anchor is on their garden.." It wasn't (quite) but we didn't drag when the side-winds came howling through that night, and both our neighbours did.

Yup, was in kastos , trying to find a sight line to to the quay that didn’t mean I would lay across my neighbours boat chain . Couldn’t manage it so lined up and went astern , when they returned I apologised , he said oh that’s alright I have 75 metres of chain out at an angle ( there was a strong wing when he anchored) 75 metres I said , you must be in the supermarket , (the harbour is 2.5 to 3 metres deep !! )

6:1 ain’t cutting it in shallow waters

[NSboatman]

Originally Posted by Panope

I am a terrible communicator.

Oh my. No! But… some are terrible listeners!!

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Panope

The reason they don't watch the videos is because they (for the most part) suck.

-boring
-endless hours of mud
-poor editing
-poor choice of words
-poor on camera/microphone demeanor
-a voice that irritates some liseteners

I am not joking. I believe I have been successful at finding some good info about anchors and utterly terrible at communicating the info.

Steve

Just find a couple of mermaids to swim languidly past one of your anchors in one of your videos and you'll be an overnight youtube sensation..........

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by qwert

Just find a couple of mermaids to swim languidly past one of your anchors in one of your videos and you'll be an overnight youtube sensation..........

Either that, or Steve can start wearing a bikini [emoji16].

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I think the big issue with the ball of failed seabed on a rollbar anchor is the rollbar itself. With that design, it's harder for the ball to just get pushed off the back of the fluke on a subsequent setting attempt. With no rollbar, the biggest concerns are whether the tip is still exposed enough to start to engage again and whether the center of gravity is too far out of whack for the anchor to set.

On a Rocna the roll bar itself isn't the problem so much as the turned up trailing edge underneath of it.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Yes. The main reasons to use a Bruce anchor on a small boat is either it's what you have and works well enough or you get it for cheap and you can't afford anything better.

This applies to anchors for small boats you still can easily carry on your own. Once the weight goes up well beyond the point where digging into the ground is less of an issue, the Bruce seems to be a fine anchor. That's why anchors uses on oil-platforms or cargo ships are of a different design than small boat anchors.

For what it is worth, I used a Bruce for years, without ever dragging. That included a direct hit from Hurricane Marty in Mexico. I have great respect for the Bruce, and am not alone.

[jipcho]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I somewhat suspect the 6:1 scope could have had something to do with it. We've been here for two days though and there was a lot of tension on the anchor so I assumed it had buried. Not so. By observation I think many use scope to overcome the fact their anchor hasn't dug in at all. I mean, lay out 90 meters of chain in 5 meters of water and I don't think the windlass can actually pull it tight.

Anyway, it's raining like crazy here this afternoon - buckets of water. Weirdly the wind is totally swirling in the bay and given my earlier problem we will watch our anchor alarm pretty closely tonight. We're hoping to get to Poros tomorrow and then head to Messolonghi for the end of the season on Saturday. Forecasts have been crap though so it will play out as it will. I should have contacted you when we were in Lefkas. Maybe next spring.

Go Boating makes an excellent point about more scope in shallow waters. I have always practiced that, and conversely, less scope ratio in deeper water The catenary of the chain protects the anchor from pulling forces. As a side note, why would your windlass need to pull it tight? When you have the correct amount of chain out, the stress on the chain should never even reach the anchor. The weight of the chain alone should take the force, and the anchor shouldn't ever have force pulling directly on it. I have never been a fan of Med style anchoring, though I'm sure you felt that you didn't have a choice. That contributed to your anchor coming loose. The beam winds pushed your vessel in a direction which your anchor had not been in a position to counteract. If, once you knew about the coming wind force and direction, there was no option to set out a second anchor in the direction of the wind, you might have considered moving to a different anchorage. Most anchorages are not secure in all wind directions.

Too many sailors become reliant on the comforts of a marina, and the conveniences that come with being in the company of other vessels and services. You'd have been better off alone, in a bay that provided shelter from the weather you experienced, if that option existed.

Even if you had secured your anchor properly, the odds are that the vessels alongside you would be dislodged (and you said, some did), and damaged yours.

I started sailing with an old CQR as my primary anchor. At some point, the hunk of lead in the point came off, and my anchor was having a really hard time digging in. Until I discovered the problem, I blamed my own anchoring capabilities. Then, I bought a new Rocna, and suddenly I was great at anchoring again. I have no doubt, though I am a big Rocna booster, that a good CQR, Delta, or Bruce would have sufficed as well.

In conclusion, enjoy the sailing, and strive to be even more self-reliant. I, unfortunately no longer have my own boat, and so I rely on the kindness of friends and strangers to get out there.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Today my Rocna 55 broke out of hard mud and didn't reset. This happened in 11' of water with somewhere around 90' of scope. We were Med moored and the port stern kissed the quay causing a small amount of fiberglass damage. There was about 25 knots of wind on the starboard beam at about 60 degrees. Location Argostoli, Kefalonia, Greece.

I actually thought I'd broken my shackle as I pulled in the chain as it came so easy across the bottom. The tip of the anchor was a solid ball of mud, straight across, but not above the base of the roll bar. My anchor roller is about 4' above the water so it should have been a 6:1 scope.

My reason for posting is two fold. First, its reset my confidence with the anchor, which previous to this I would have considered faultless and bomb proof. And second, I've read so many post they have never had their anchor drag or trip no matter if it was used 400 times per year for 50 years. Well, I confess, mine did.

To round out the story, the only other two boats that were anchored also broke free at the same time. One with an Ultra and one with a Delta. No idea on scope in their cases. Maybe its mud here over a hardpan bottom and therefore didn't allow the anchor to bury anymore. I don't know but it does show the one major fault of the new gen anchors which is when they do break free, if plugged with mud, won't reset.

One of the reasons I would not go for an anchor with a roll bar. Essentially they are not self righting - the roll bar is a 'fix'. That 'fix' can also be an issue, being a fouling point in weed and rock-strewn mud. It also exhibits resistance to burying.
Sure they work better than the older generation, but there are better newer generation anchors that through a weighted tip, are self-righting, and don't have the other issues associated with a roll bar.

I suggest one possibility is as you were hauling your anchor, some of the mud and gravel washed off, but you still saw the ball of mud on the tip. The roll bar may well have been supporting that mud - without which, the anchor could have buried properly again.

There are very few anchors out there with roll bars .....

[SteveSadler]

We experienced similar problems in Greece with our Delta. I would dive on it while my wife backed hard. It skipped across the hard bottoms and dug trenches in soft mud. In dry dock the yard filled the cavity in the point with molten Zinc. Later testing proved to me anyways that it dug in easier than before. I've seen many types of anchors refuse to set like this, CQRs being the worst and lightest tips. I dive my anchor 95% of the time and have only drug when I didn't. The soft mud in Greek harbors is notorious for poor holding, only to be compensated with lots of scope.

[Chotu]

Man, I got a used 80lbs Rocna to replace me stolen Manson Supreme of the same general size.

I’ve been feeling nervous about using it and trusted the Manson supreme greatly.

I’m wondering if I should ditch this Rocna and stick with what I know and love and just fork out for another Manson supreme.

Of course, this was a weird situation in this thread since there was a force at 90 degrees to the chain pushing in the anchoring setup, but still. I’d rather sleep well at night.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Med mooring to a quay is very problematic , firstly you need 10:1 scope , in 3 metres plus 1 to the bow , you need 40m out , if you have the space drop even more , I often have 50m in 3 metres, stern too

6:1 ain’t going to cut it , in this case the short length will destroy the catenary effect and a surge will pull the anchor out as was commented there’s no chance to reset before you hit the dock

You will regulary see “ old hands “ drop a spectacular amount of chain in some harbours. In Kalamos Geogre will insist you go right to the other side and yiu end up with almost everything you have out.

This was a failure of scope not the , not to mention the boat is a big cat with way more windage then a mono

This is probably the reason it broke free and that my assumption that the anchor would continue to dig down rather then just pop out was wrong. To be clear, from observation there wasn't a ball of mud but rather a slice of the bottom.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jipcho

Go Boating makes an excellent point about more scope in shallow waters. I have always practiced that, and conversely, less scope ratio in deeper water The catenary of the chain protects the anchor from pulling forces. As a side note, why would your windlass need to pull it tight? When you have the correct amount of chain out, the stress on the chain should never even reach the anchor. The weight of the chain alone should take the force, and the anchor shouldn't ever have force pulling directly on it. I have never been a fan of Med style anchoring, though I'm sure you felt that you didn't have a choice. That contributed to your anchor coming loose. The beam winds pushed your vessel in a direction which your anchor had not been in a position to counteract. If, once you knew about the coming wind force and direction, there was no option to set out a second anchor in the direction of the wind, you might have considered moving to a different anchorage. Most anchorages are not secure in all wind directions.

Too many sailors become reliant on the comforts of a marina, and the conveniences that come with being in the company of other vessels and services. You'd have been better off alone, in a bay that provided shelter from the weather you experienced, if that option existed.

Even if you had secured your anchor properly, the odds are that the vessels alongside you would be dislodged (and you said, some did), and damaged yours.

I started sailing with an old CQR as my primary anchor. At some point, the hunk of lead in the point came off, and my anchor was having a really hard time digging in. Until I discovered the problem, I blamed my own anchoring capabilities. Then, I bought a new Rocna, and suddenly I was great at anchoring again. I have no doubt, though I am a big Rocna booster, that a good CQR, Delta, or Bruce would have sufficed as well.

In conclusion, enjoy the sailing, and strive to be even more self-reliant. I, unfortunately no longer have my own boat, and so I rely on the kindness of friends and strangers to get out there.

In practice it’s easy to write and Less easy to do

In Greece if you want to visit towns , (a major attraction for most people ) you do so on your own anchor backed up to a simple town quay. Marinas few that there are , will have lazy lines ( which can be very problematic as well )

While there are many bays the water is deep till you are very close to the shore , this tends to force long lines ashore and leads to the same problem as quay stern to , ie no room to reset. The long wet dinghy ride in the tea time winds does not impress your partner either

The next thing is that you always but always fender the stern on the assumption you will make contact. My biggest fenders are there.

Then you ensure as much scope as humanly possible is out , 50/60/70 metres is often “ only enough “

Anchoring in some remote bay is all very well but it’s not as simple a decision as you make out.

As I said this was a failure of scope not anchor

I urge anyone interested in anchors to pick up a copy of Erik HInz bible on the subject

[chasfgr]

Argostoli quay, mainly thin mud on rock, no good for most anchors (except, possibly, an Admiralty).
If the wind is going to get above Bf4 continuously I prefer two anchors at 60-90 degrees. I've found a generic Danforth (providing it's sharp) as good as anything else, but do respect the Admiralty. Mine is used so infrequently that it's stowed below in KD form and brought out for rocky bottoms (of which there are many in the Med).

[Off Trail]

Three thoughts.

First, for the initial breakout, this seems more like "bottom failure" than anchor failure. Based on your description of the mud ball one could imagine pretty much any other anchor type underneath that ball. So short of having more surface area (i.e., bigger anchor) it seems like there wasn't much to be done.

Second, you describe beam winds while med-moored. The force geometry here is very bad, far worse than when swinging at anchor. Consider the immense force multiple when jumping a halyard; the geometry here is similar.

Last, being med moored, there was likely almost no "dragging space" for there even to be a chance of a reset before impact with the quay.

Tough situation, thanks for sharing it [emoji106]

Dan

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I've got no issue watching through the videos and gathering information from them. I could see it being a bit much to try to watch through 20 of them in a row, but watching one at a time isn't boring for us nerdy types.

Sh*t man, I watched at least 20 in a row when I was trying to decide on a new storm anchor. Steve, your videos are fascinating and I have to pry myself away from them.

Also, the new anchor I ended up with was a 2-size-up spade that miraculously fits on my bow roller. And it's never dragged! So ha, I get to be one of those people that says my anchor has never dragged! I just won't mention the part where I took off travelling right after getting it, and my boat hasn't left the dock with it once