Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

[GARRYOWEN]

So many great and thoughtful responses, thank you so much! Very interesting reading.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by hamburking

LOL!

The Swan was not mine!

The wife has gone awol!

My budget is a joke!

But I'll find a boat. And I'm going sailing!!!

I sailed for years in a Tartan 44 which is a S&S design similar to the Swans of the same era..There were certainly times going downwind that you could get it rolling but just adjusting your heading a few degrees and it would settle down so your experience might have been self induced by your skipper. Yes the multis are a treat downwind in ideal conditions but as you probably know there is often lots of upwind work on a passage and then everything changes..the typical cruising multi is slow upwind and sometimes very noisy with waves smashing the bridge deck.. so noisy it's often hard to sleep. In the meantime the Swan will be going like a freight train and be making very good time and reasonably comfortable. As Jim mentioned none of the Swan racer/cruisers of that era were full keel. Keep in mind your comparing an IOR boat of the 70's and early 80's to a modern Cat which is not a fair comparison. If you took a modern flat bottomed cruiser designed for quick offshore sailing, 3specially off the wind you'd find that it sailed much flatter and much quicker than the earlier Swan and many of them in compatible living size are faster than your cruising cats offshore.

[boom23]

I agree with the above... Catamarans are VERY loud from slapping waves on the bridge deck. During bad storms, it felt like our ex L450 would fall apart. It was miserable. But, catamarans are great at anchor. Everything is a compromise. You have to figure out what's important to you.

[catsketcher]

If you are going to maybe buy a cat you should at least get off the internet and buy some books - The Case for the cruising multihull - is a good start with multis. Not buying a cat because some don't go to windward or some others bang their bridgedeck is like rejecting dating women because you tried it once and you didn't get on.

Our cat almost never bangs on the bridgedeck floor. It is probably because it has a clearance of almost 900mm. And it goes to windward like a train, as fast or faster than a same size mono. It is a really nice boat to sail to windward, after 17 years I still get a buzz from doing it.

Cats are not only made by Lagoon or other glass builders. There are fab cats designed by White, Chamberlin, Grainger, Schionning, Woods, etc that will not bang and will go really well to windward, downwind, anywhere. They are there to buy, why people automatically think production cat is a mystery to me when there are such good examples of seaworthy and slippery ones from one off or low on volume builders. That is not to say there are not fine production cats, but just as you can't condemn monos because of a poor example, you can't generalise about windward performance or slamming on the basis of one type of design.

Get off the computer and get sailing on heaps of boats. One day one will talk to you.

cheers

Phil

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hamburking

I crossed the atlantic on a Swan 48... a true "blue water" boat with deep full keel. It was miserable. We rolled gunnel to gunnel on a dead run for weeks. The noise and motion made it almost impossible to do anything. Even taking a pee was a major endeavor. We ate badly, slept badly, and became disagreeable.

Later, I saw a youtube video of the same crossing on a cat. They were eating suppers at a table with wine glasses. Preparing real meals on a stove without gimbal or pot clamps. They showered, dressed nicely, and seemed to have a lovely time on a spacious boat that goes much faster than a mono.

This is a big safety advantage that is often overlooked. A well rested and fed crew is likely to make better decisions when a problem comes up.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This is a big safety advantage that is often overlooked. A well rested and fed crew is likely to make better decisions when a problem comes up.

I agree. Some newer monos are alot better than the older style boats from a rolling downwind perspective but still a nice cat downwind is just better again. This is why the blue water boat thing is a joke to me. A boat built like a tank that rolls gunnel to gunnel and exhausts it crew isn't safer than a modern boat, particularly a cat that keeps the crew well fed and rested.

[Pete7]

Rather than trying to define a "bluewater yacht" it might be better to break them down into yachts and areas you might operate them in.

So to quote Markj of this forum, standard production yachts are low risk for sailing in season and mid latitudes.

Want to sail mid latitudes out of season, say winter in the North Atlantic, well forget it, no yacht is suitable.

Want to go high latitude more than once or for an extended period then look for.........

This would mean that most standard production yachts like Bavaria, Jeanneau and Beneteau are fine for crossing oceans in season, which is exactly what people are doing every year, the world over.

So there is no need for a long keeled double ended yacht just to sail out of sight of land, borne out by the fact you would be pushed to buy a new one in Europe because there is no demand for slow lumbering yachts.

Pete

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish

Aside from proper planning, I figured there were two types of "bluewater" (subjective term) boats. Ones that could outrun a storm and ones that could survive a storm. Personally, I prefer fast and comfortable cause I already own the other kind.

There are not many boats that can outrun weather systems, at least on the open ocean, and that is what we are talking about here. Comanche did 2 or 3 years ago, but she is a 100´carbon composite racer. Atlantic weather systems move at 20 knots or so and are much to wide to sail around. So I want a boat that can survive the weather. Doesn't have to be slow for that. Look at the VOR70s.

[danielamartindm]

So...the Pacific Seacraft 34 isn't a blue water vessel?

[D Rock]

This is an interesting thread and I think the OP did a good job of expressing the desire for unbiased input on his observations. All of our input will be biased.

When we were looking to replace our moderate displacement, full keeled mono a few years ago we had collected our "list" for the next boat after 9 years on that one. We made the list and set out to be open minded.

We looked at everything that met, or could be made to meet, "The List".

We looked at several trawlers...that simply wasn't for us. Great or perfect for others though. I get it. No debate.

What we found with cats...There are some good ones out there for sure...but it seemed that a 5 year old 'production' cat was already in need of some serious re-fitting or had just undergone one. They just didn't seem to hold up as well as a well made mono hull (not trying to pick a fight). We also found that in our price range, a 'production' cat was all that we would be able to 'up to'.

Compared to mono hulls...We found several that could 'meet the list', but none that were done and ready (according to our list). Quality build, sea kindliness, and livability were our criteria. We come from a background (aviation, manufacturing) that instinctively tells us what "quality build" is, and is not (not trying to pick a fight). So we could get our livability, sea kindly characteristics, and safety at sea in our price range by going the mono hull route.

There have been some good discussions here. As has been said -- it is best to know what 'your list' includes. Only you can decide what you NEED. And, I will add what you NEED will change as you cruise (especially at 2:00am, 35 kts, and 8-10s).

Know what you need then make the jump! It's a wonderful life. Unfortunately, My wife was diagnosed with type 1 Diabetes in 2016. For this chronic autoimmune disease, that's 4 insulin shots a day. Ouch!

We are calling the game and have the boat for sale (Tayana 48, Nomad).

Peace, Love, Nomad
D

[jackjb53]

This reply has nothing to do with the thread. I need help with how to post a new thread? I have searched the site pretty thoroughly and I can't seem to find any information on this? All kinds of info on how to modify, but nothing on how to make an initial post. I am sure it is something I have overlooked and is simple?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jackjb53

This reply has nothing to do with the thread. I need help with how to post a new thread? I have searched the site pretty thoroughly and I can't seem to find any information on this? All kinds of info on how to modify, but nothing on how to make an initial post. I am sure it is something I have overlooked and is simple?

Go to the top of the page.. just below the picture logo for CF are a row of drop tabs.. click on the second one along 'FORUMS' then pick the category you want to post under.. Mono's, Multi's, etc
Then click on New Thread once you have made your forum choice.. pretty simple really, even for a Luddite like me..
Exploration and adaptability is a fundamental requirement for sailors..

[john61ct]

Travelling is risky, on a boat off shore even more so.

We all have different levels of aversion to the risk of dying at sea.

Money can reduce that risk.

We all have different ability and willingness to spend our money on reducing that risk.

And other factors like beauty, comfort and social status compete for those same limited funds.

So these questions really cannot have simple or "objective" answers.

Best we can do is help each other with the learning curve on the specific safety / risk factors involved, and each of us will then make our own wildly different decisions based on those facts.

[fatherchronica]

I am of the opinion that coastal cruising probably kills more sailors than bluewater cruises. Not only crashing into near shore objects, but diseases, and the safety levels of various and areas. I have no data to back this up. Just an opinion. However, my opinion has sent me offshore to avoid long pieces of dangerous coast, and while I have been in some pretty nasty weather, I felt safe knowing that I had a stout boat and no obstructions nearby.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by fatherchronica

I am of the opinion that coastal cruising probably kills more sailors than bluewater cruises. Not only crashing into near shore objects, but diseases, and the safety levels of various and areas. I have no data to back this up. Just an opinion. However, my opinion has sent me offshore to avoid long pieces of dangerous coast, and while I have been in some pretty nasty weather, I felt safe knowing that I had a stout boat and no obstructions nearby.

I would have to agree that more coastal cruisers die. I'm not sure it is objects? I'm guessing people going off shore are probably better trained/prepared. Not weekend warriors.